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| Motorcycle Message Board - Motorcycle USA > MotorcycleUSA.com! > General Motorcycle Chat > Buell shut down by HD? | Forum Quick Jump
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louemc
Registered Member
      
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 15451
| Posted 10/19/2009 8:42 AM (GMT -8) |   |
GeoffG said...
jclax01 said...
yo Lou, I think you were asking the wrong guy questions about your bike. Yes it was his company, yes his vision. But this guy was a VP at Harley and start up owner for his company. He probably did not have an idea what you were talking about. He is a money guy with SOME knowledge of his own product. I am sure he knows the price point of the bikes he made, but I bet he would hard pressed to even know where the battery was on the bike. Actually, jclax, Erik Buell is an engineer and the guy who came up with most of the interesting concepts on Buell motorcycles. He holds a ton of patents (things like the crumple zone that allows the fuel-in-frame concept to work safely, ZTL braking system, even the underslung muffler concept--although I believe that last one has run out). He designed the Uniplanar mounting system which allows the Harley-based engine to rock fore and aft, but holds it rigidly side to side. He was not a VP at Harley, he was an engineer who worked on frame and chassis systems--I believe the XLCR was his design--who raced as a privateer on weekends, and thought he could make a better racebike. He quit Harley to start his own company, building 750GP racebikes in his garage (powered by a Barton square-4 2-stroke engine, BTW). His bikes were promising, but the AMA changed format and dropped the 750GP class in favour of 600 and 1000 cc production classes, and suddenly Buell racebikes had no class to race in. He was able to buy some unused XR1000 engines from H-D, and he built his first streetbikes using those engines--and that was the beginning of Buell as we know it today. So no, Lou was asking the right guy the questions.
Thanks for adding the Eric Buell History GeoffG 
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martinjmpr
08 Triumph Scrambler
Date Joined Jun 2003
Total Posts : 4196
| Posted 10/19/2009 9:04 AM (GMT -8) | |
GeoffG said...
Martin, you're exactly right. This is why it is so difficult to bring innovation to the market--most people are just too conservative (and worse, afraid of being thought gullible) to actually try anything new.
Well, I agree that most people are "conservative" when it comes to choosing a motorcycle but I don't see that as being a bad thing. Just because an idea is 'new and exciting' doesn't mean it's better than an old idea. Think about some of the innovative bikes that were introduced on the market in the 1970's: The rotary engined RE-5, the big multi-cylinder two-stroke twins and triples from Kawasaki, Suzuki and Yamaha - those were new, radical ideas but they never really caught on because ultimately they didn't do anything that the more "conventional" bikes didn't do better, and they had negatives (particularly in the case of the 2 strokes) that could not be offset by their advantages (noise, emissions, etc.)
As I said in an earlier post, the market can be cruel, but it's never wrong. People buy things that they perceive will give them the most value for their money. Add to this, the fact that motorcycles in our culture are toys (the tiny fraction of people who are able to use a motorcycle as their only transportation notwithstanding) and very expensive toys at that, so I don't see anything wrong with a person being "conservative" about how he spends $10k. I'm pretty damn conservative when it comes to spending that kind of money, too!
After all, there's a difference between "trying something new" in the form of a $15 meal at a restaurant and "trying something new" that requires you to lay out 10 large first.
Martin
Englewood, CO (Denver suburb)
UJM (Universal Japanese Motorcycle) Fanatic
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Smitty
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 18448
| Posted 10/19/2009 1:36 PM (GMT -8) | | | | |
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Racer1
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 735
| Posted 10/19/2009 1:40 PM (GMT -8) | | I have to believe that one reason for the failure of Buell was the decision to sell them out of Harley Dealerships. Obviously this helped with costs and having HD mechanics on staff, but I would be astonished to hear of any customer who was enthusiastically led to a Buell by a Harley salesman.
Three Buells, gathering dust forlornly in the far corner doesn't exactly inspire you to look too closely, let alone plunk your money down. The Harley salesmen are - almost by definition - hard core Harley (and by extension, cruiser) types who can hardly have had any enthusiasm about selling a bike they had zero personal interest in.
Maybe stand-alone dealerships might have helped - or even trying to incorporate the brand into other multi-brand dealerships - Triumph/Ducati/BMW, etc. That suited the demographic a bit better.
All water under the bridge now, but I'm surprised Eric let the Harley dealerships treat his product in such an offhand, second class way without addressing it a lot sooner. | | Back to Top | | |
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Dr. Bombay
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2004
Total Posts : 1328
| Posted 10/19/2009 2:04 PM (GMT -8) | | You're right on the money, Racer1. The sales and merchandising strategy for Buell was wrong from day one. The (massively flawed) strategy was that Buell would help bring younger riders into H-D dealerships, but I don't think it ever would have worked. Two different cultures, really. And, although there were a few H-D dealers who were doing a good job with Buell, it seems the vast majority were not. I have four or five H-D dealers in my immediate area and I think all of them dropped Buell altogether. When some of them did carry the line, the disinterest was palpable. Of course, that wasn't Buell's only problem, but it was probably the biggest. I've been advocating at least a store-within-a-store concept for years.
Jclax, I heard it rumored that Buell wanted to take the company independent, but a certain member or members of H-D's board wouldn't go for it. I would guess that H-D probably owns most or all of Buell's intellectual property and the brand wouldn't be very appealing to a buyer, anyway. It was probably never profitable and was still only a very niche brand. In this economy, I doubt there would be much interest in a boutique brand with only a small cult following in a sagging product category. They may have tried to sell it, but it was probably more beneficial to hang on to the intellectual property and shut the whole operation down. | | Back to Top | | |
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GeoffG
Harley Ninja!
Date Joined Jun 2003
Total Posts : 9195
| Posted 10/19/2009 5:01 PM (GMT -8) | | Racer1 said...
I have to believe that one reason for the failure of Buell was the decision to sell them out of Harley Dealerships. Obviously this helped with costs and having HD mechanics on staff, but I would be astonished to hear of any customer who was enthusiastically led to a Buell by a Harley salesman.
It's a long-standing point of discussion amongst Buell owners. In the beginning, Buell worked long and hard to get his bikes into H-D dealerships--he was selling them through several H-D places before Harley ever bought in (in fact, it was the success of Buell bikes in those dealerships that helped Buell close the deal with H-D). But yeah, in later years, the relationship was not good. Many dealers didn't want to carry Buell, and eventually there was a shake-up and many H-D dealers lost their option on Buells.
The interesting thing is that Buells sold better in Europe than in North America; in Europe, they were not tied to the H-D dealer structure and any dealer could sell them, so they were in showrooms right beside Ducatis, Hondas, Triumphs, etc. This tells me that poor sales in North America likely did have more to do with the dealer network (and the sportbike community's perception of H-D) than the bikes themselves. | | Back to Top | | |
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lawrence1
Bowhunter
Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 236
| Posted 10/19/2009 7:12 PM (GMT -8) | | Last summer when I checked out the oldest H-D dealership, A.D Frrow in Columbus, OH, the Buells were right up by the front door and the sales guy I talked too was somewhat knowledgeable about them and upfront about the 1125's tuning problems. They only had 2, an 1125r and the adventure touring bike model and he said they were "not going to get in any more this year". He lost interest in me and walked away when he asked me what I was riding and I told him a 06 Z1000. If I had bought a bike that day, it would have been the new XR1200 which was sitting directly in front of the entrance, it was the only bike there that came close to doing what I want my Z to do for me now. It had the correct foot peg location, handling and power delivery that is more inline with my idea of what a bike should be. Buell had the 1125CR with streetfighter bars but I've never seen one, except for pictures.
84% is a big drop for any business, drastic measures were definately called for. Too bad about their finance division, seems greed reared it's ugly head, also those repossessed units still have value so not a total loss. Harley has so many units in the field they could survive on supplying just parts with a skeleton crew. They need to make a dirt bike similar to the other makers offerings. Four wheelers are big. Even if they made lawnmowers, I don't understand how that takes away from the riders of their Cruisers???
Whats going to happen to H-D's dealer network? A thinning of the flock seems in order.
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skyhawk04kilo
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2009
Total Posts : 180
| Posted 10/19/2009 7:58 PM (GMT -8) | | lawrence1 said...
Last summer when I checked out the oldest H-D dealership, A.D Frrow in Columbus, OH, the Buells were right up by the front door and the sales guy I talked too was somewhat knowledgeable about them and upfront about the 1125's tuning problems. They only had 2, an 1125r and the adventure touring bike model and he said they were "not going to get in any more this year". He lost interest in me and walked away when he asked me what I was riding and I told him a 06 Z1000. If I had bought a bike that day, it would have been the new XR1200 which was sitting directly in front of the entrance, it was the only bike there that came close to doing what I want my Z to do for me now. It had the correct foot peg location, handling and power delivery that is more inline with my idea of what a bike should be. Buell had the 1125CR with streetfighter bars but I've never seen one, except for pictures.
84% is a big drop for any business, drastic measures were definately called for. Too bad about their finance division, seems greed reared it's ugly head, also those repossessed units still have value so not a total loss. Harley has so many units in the field they could survive on supplying just parts with a skeleton crew. They need to make a dirt bike similar to the other makers offerings. Four wheelers are big. Even if they made lawnmowers, I don't understand how that takes away from the riders of their Cruisers???
Whats going to happen to H-D's dealer network? A thinning of the flock seems in order.
I'm in the same boat, that XR1200 is actually a nice package. I never thought I'd like a Harley, but I saw a review comparing the XR1200 to the new Ducati Monster. Of course the Ducati won the performance category, but the Harley was really not that far behind, I was impressed.
The big V-twin just fits with the XR a lot more than it does with a sport bike. Buell's are kind of lost as to what they want to be. But that XR, that's niiiiiice!
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jclax01
The world is ruled by Damned Dirty Apes
Date Joined Jan 2008
Total Posts : 2555
| Posted 10/20/2009 4:00 AM (GMT -8) | |
GeoffG said...
jclax01 said...
I think harley tried to sell the brand. Any owner would always try to sell before closing a subsiduary. No takers. so they are shutting the doors.
Basically harley was the money man for Buell. I do not think that harley had any real thing to do with production and such.
No money, no company. Unfortunately, Harley did not try to sell; rumours were that Bombardier (Can-Am--and they also own Rotax) was interested. Buell was actually making a profit--H-D is not shutting it down because it's unprofitable, it's shutting it down because H-D is trying to downsize (apparently their finance division is taking a bath). Makes no sense to me, but then again I'm an engineer, not an MBA.
that rumor makes no sense to me Geooff. It makes sense for Harley to trim its operations because Harley finacial has taken a bath (in fact didn't harley finacial get some stimulus money from the fed). but I can't see them not trying to sell a company that is turning a profit. The only thing I can see is that potential buyers tried to low ball them. Probably never know the real story unless you last name is Davidson.
Ride Hard or Stay home
1994 Kaw Vulcan 88
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RedDog
Retired SportBike Bum
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 11268
| Posted 10/20/2009 5:14 AM (GMT -8) | |
Smax said...I think Yamaha may see the Euro-Buell-appeal: rumor has it they may purchase the company: "...In a statement released by Hirofumi Osawa, President of Yamaha Motor Corporation of America..."We are very interested in the spirit and innovation that Buell has used as a foundation in their buisness. We feel their values align well with Yamaha's culture". stated Mr. Osawa...". Hmmm... There's a problem right now in MC dragracing in that "Buells" (actually S&S-based '57 Sportster-engine-powered ProStockMotorcycles) comprise roughly half the 16-bike fields in NHRA PSM competition.
Hoax?
One said: A hoax quote (FZ1 forum guy made it up) - Harley says Buell isn't for sale.
RedDog 
Think Ahead! Travel Light & Leave Your Fears Behind You!
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wisart
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2006
Total Posts : 294
| Posted 10/21/2009 5:44 AM (GMT -8) | | In addition to that GeoffG I just read this article -
www.dealernews.com/dealernews/LATEST+NEWS/Wisconsin-Business-Group-Keep-Buell-in-East-Troy/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/635447?contextCategoryId=48472
Pasted here -
"A private-public economic development group operating in a region that includes East Troy, Wis., has launched an effort to keep Buell Motorcycles production in the area.
A spokesman for the Walworth County Economic Development Alliance says that the group effort is meant to stop the loss of a business that employees 180 in a town of 4,500. Such a loss will have a big impact on East Troy, says Fred Burkhardt, executive VP of the Alliance.
A team of officials from the Village of East Troy, the Walworth County Board and the East Troy Chamber of Commerce is seeking a meeting first with company founder and namesake Erik Buell to find out where he stands on the proposal, and then with Harley-Davidson to see what options are available.
"This wasn't a brainstorm, this was a mandate," says Burkhardt about the proposal to keep Buell that was made shortly after Harley announced it was shutting down its Buell line. "This really wasn't a discretionary call. We must go out and see what we can do."
Burkhardt stressed that the agency has a vested interest in keeping Buell around and speculated on the possibility of Harley-Davidson divesting itself of the the sportbike line rather than shutting it down. "I guess if Hummer can unwind from GM, Buell can unwind from Harley."
Upon announcing last week that it's third quarter net income was down 71.6 percent and revenue was down 17.1 percent, the Motor Co. said that it would shut down production of Buell and sell off the recently purchased MV Agusta.
In response to a question from Dealernews about the Walworth County group's proposal, Bob Klein, Harley-Davidson's director of corporate communications, says Buell will be shuttered.
"As we have indicated, we are discontinuing the Buell product line rather than selling the business because of how deeply integrated Buell is into our business systems and distribution network," Klein says." | | Back to Top | | |
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