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jclax01
The world is ruled by Damned Dirty Apes



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   Posted 1/5/2012 11:36 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Something to make one think. I read the article about the harley plant in india tonight. The article was talking about the cost savings of using labor in india as opposed to importing the bikes made in the USA. of course there is some tariff charges in this math, but since the bikes are put together in India and sent fully assembled, they only pay a portion of the tariff. Looking at it, there is about a 29% reduction in the cost in assembly labor (including the tariff's). Thats a huge price difference and actually puts the harley price right in line with the metric prices for a new bike.

I wonder how long with that big of a saving will harley continue to assemble bikes in the USA? scary thought huh?

I have also noticed somewhat of a big drop in prices of used bikes across the board here. Its a much deeper savings than what is usually seen in the off season. I think the bad economy is deflating the prices of used machines big time here. Anyone else notice a big drop in prices even before the off season?


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Richard47
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   Posted 1/6/2012 2:37 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

I have to wonder why people buy new Harleys anyway, a ten year old HD looks just the same to me as a new one. I'm not knocking Harleys here, almost the same thing can be said for many modern bikes, the styling may be a bit different but there is no real difference in the way they ride on a public road. I think you could be right about used prices, it's posssible to buy very nice used machines for a fraction of the cost of a new bike, I doubt I would buy a new one, even if I had the cash to do so.

Of course, I'm speaking as a rider whose annual mileage can be measured in hundreds, rather than thousands. If I rode more a new bike might make more sense. Even so, new bike prices seem very expensive to me. 


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Andy VH
Where is the earth shattering kaboom!?



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   Posted 1/6/2012 6:09 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I thought the India built Harleys are intended solely for the Southeast-Asia markets and to avoid the stiff tariffs/dutys those countries impose on imports and products not built in those countries. Not certain that Harley intends to import India built Harleys to the US market, because Joe-USA HD buyer would not want a Harley built by Sanjay in Mumbai.

I would hope Harley remains smart enough to realize a strong part of the allure of a Harley (even though, like said a 2012 looks like a 2002) is that it is an American icon, built in America! Even though many parts come from Japan, it is still an American product.


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Casper
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   Posted 1/6/2012 6:51 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
""29% reduction in the cost in assembly labor (including the tariff's). ""
 
Is that all?  Import tariffs into India are frickin' huge,,, so that's pretty amazing really.  The Indian Market is huge with over a billion people and their trade policies are very protectionist.  A US built HD carries close to 100% tariff burden ($15K for the motorcycle, $15K tariff (Import tax paid to gov't) - total cost of the unit $30K).
 
This is how India kept Honda from killing Enfield - kept Kia from destroying Tata, Toyota from burying Mahindra.  Sometimes I wonder if they're on the right track.
 
With China's costs rising and somebody in Gov. trying to do something about their currency manipulation and theft of about a Jillion $ worth of software, some pundits are predicting a resurgence in US manufacturing.  I hope so.


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Racer1
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   Posted 1/6/2012 7:19 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Casper said...
""29% reduction in the cost in assembly labor (including the tariff's). ""


Is that all? Import tariffs into India are frickin' huge,,, so that's pretty amazing really. The Indian Market is huge with over a billion people and their trade policies are very protectionist. A US built HD carries close to 100% tariff burden ($15K for the motorcycle, $15K tariff (Import tax paid to gov't) - total cost of the unit $30K).



This is how India kept Honda from killing Enfield - kept Kia from destroying Tata, Toyota from burying Mahindra. Sometimes I wonder if they're on the right track.



With China's costs rising and somebody in Gov. trying to do something about their currency manipulation and theft of about a Jillion $ worth of software, some pundits are predicting a resurgence in US manufacturing. I hope so.


I take two things from this = I too seriously hope for a resurgence in US manufacturing and I really want a car called a Tata.
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jclax01
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   Posted 1/6/2012 7:42 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Casper, thats for fully assembled units imported to India. Harley is bringing in partial assembled machines into India and are not hit the "big" tariff. They still pay a tariff, but its reduced because the machine is not assembled. I'm not sure what counts as assembled to India (bike is totally in parts or the front fork is off the bike).


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Casper
The teddy bear of doom,,,



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   Posted 1/6/2012 8:45 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Racer1 said...

I take two things from this = I too seriously hope for a resurgence in US manufacturing and I really want a car called a Tata.
Do ya' now?
 


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RaptorFA
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   Posted 1/6/2012 9:04 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Andy VH said...
I thought the India built Harleys are intended solely for the Southeast-Asia markets and to avoid the stiff tariffs/dutys those countries impose on imports and products not built in those countries. Not certain that Harley intends to import India built Harleys to the US market, because Joe-USA HD buyer would not want a Harley built by Sanjay in Mumbai.

I would hope Harley remains smart enough to realize a strong part of the allure of a Harley (even though, like said a 2012 looks like a 2002) is that it is an American icon, built in America! Even though many parts come from Japan, it is still an American product.

Andy, I thought the same thing here; that the U.S. market would not see any India-produced anything and that the plant over there was for the APAC/EMEA markets. I guess I'm going to have to read up; Clax may be right. Not sure here guys, but HD might be in harder times than they are letting on. Hope not.
 
Casper said...
Is that all?  Import tariffs into India are frickin' huge,,, so that's pretty amazing really.  The Indian Market is huge with over a billion people and their trade policies are very protectionist.  A US built HD carries close to 100% tariff burden ($15K for the motorcycle, $15K tariff (Import tax paid to gov't) - total cost of the unit $30K).
 
This is how India kept Honda from killing Enfield - kept Kia from destroying Tata, Toyota from burying Mahindra.  Sometimes I wonder if they're on the right track.
 
With China's costs rising and somebody in Gov. trying to do something about their currency manipulation and theft of about a Jillion $ worth of software, some pundits are predicting a resurgence in US manufacturing.  I hope so.
And Casper... Bingo, Brother! Like your take on India. And I figure we should should just cancel the debt the Chinese supposedly hold of ours and call it even if you add up the damage caused by Chinese-launched cyber attacks, the tainted products, the theft of senitive DoD documents, software and whatever else they have stolen from us and the currency manipulation alone! I'm being just a tad crazy here of course but I'm tired of all this stuff going on and everyone in gov just looking the other way and giving them preferred trade status anyway.  


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RaptorFA
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Post Edited (RaptorFA) : 1/6/2012 4:12:06 PM GMT

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RaptorFA
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   Posted 1/6/2012 9:10 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Casper said...
Racer1 said...

I take two things from this = I too seriously hope for a resurgence in US manufacturing and I really want a car called a Tata.
Do ya' now?
 

Ummm...    Sorry, couldn't help myself!!


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RaptorFA
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Andy VH
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   Posted 1/6/2012 9:15 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I call on a couple manufacturing accounts that build product here in the US and Germany. The US division is actually expanding their operations in Wisconsin to build MORE product here in the US that they were outsourcing previously. I am seeing some shift to more insourcing. The growth for them now is in South American and Asian markets, with US built product. I hope we see more of that in the future.

As China continues to develop a better paid middle-class, costs are rising. I have heard some companies seeking alternate low-cost countries like Vietnam because production costs in China are rising. I bet within ten years a lot less product is exported from China.

Yeah, perhaps saying "I drive a Tata would be kinda funny, but it is BUTT ugly!"


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Casper
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   Posted 1/7/2012 1:00 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'd just have to buy 2 of them. "I'm out in the garage, playing with my Tatas!"... "Damn Casper, that's a nice looking pair of tatas!"... :p


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skyhawk04kilo
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   Posted 1/7/2012 6:15 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Casper said...
I'd just have to buy 2 of them. "I'm out in the garage, playing with my Tatas!"... "Damn Casper, that's a nice looking pair of tatas!"... :p


Do you think they make a bra for your Tatas?

www.carbras.com/


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thesoapster
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   Posted 1/7/2012 7:28 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
lol

"Let's take a closer look at those Tatas."

"Can I test drive one of your Tatas?"


It's really quite endless.
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el SID
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   Posted 1/7/2012 8:07 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hope you dont mind me parkin my Hog between your tatas.......
It would be hard to keep a straight face in a service department for sure.....
Yes maam we will service your tatas.....
We will rub out your tata....
Let me get your tata on a lft and have someone inspect it.
this thread could go on for ever couldnt it?


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mrmarklin
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   Posted 1/7/2012 6:30 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

The reason Harleys are assembled in India is that the tariffs for whole bikes would make the cost to the consumer prohibitive.  Parts are shipped from the US for assembly in India.  The MOCO has been doing this for years in Brazil.  Most of these bikes stay in their home or nearby markets.

 

It's true that by buying a used Harley one does not have to feel like one is riding an "outdated" bike, since only the cognisceti can tell the difference between model years.  Of course, the actual bikes are continually being upgraded in ways that are not always obvious.


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jclax01
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   Posted 1/7/2012 9:12 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
MrMarklin, harley has been updating the engine size for the last few years. 88ci, 96ci,103ci and the 110ci (cvo models only). thats a pretty obvious upgrade. The 110 is a powerful engine, but they are having a major heat issue. The heat from that big 110 is too much to air cool in my opinion. My buddy has the 110 road glide ultra and the engine blew its gasket at under 3500 miles. The shop told him its a common problem with that engine. that engine just came out a few years ago so maybe they need to work out the bugs or stick a radiator on it.

most companies held the line with upgrades the last few years ago with the down economy. the sportsbikes keep upgrading because they are in a constant race (literally) with the other manufacturers. Victory has added a lot of different iron to its collection of motorcycles, but really they are the same bike with different bolt on equipment. Thats really not a change or upgrade IMO.


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Smitty
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   Posted 1/10/2012 12:18 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

jclax & Martin are correct, for some just a year or so ago HD said they were sending HDs to China to be assembled & so it seems Indian was better.

Take the Royal Enflied that RE sold to India, I worked on an Indian 500cc Single just a few years ago in the sort of Albion cog box that was giving the owner trouble.  When I started to pull the cog box apart, remember this was the workmanship of India, out came a maze of shavings from work done inside.  Actually in cleaning it up this seemed to be the failure.  The prior owner stopped riding it for I think he ran into electrical problems & if you know me I go nutty when it comes to tracing electronics.

Of interest at lst HD said they would be sending the HD many parts, to be assembled in China, but seems it has changed to India.

jclax did bring up he problems of some  of the most powerful HD being heating.  It was the one thing we noted when flat tracing Indian to HD bikes.  We also worried about Vincent HRD 1000cc bikes, but they worked out fine. 

Honda came out with the 1000cc RT that so many praised & wish they had.  Though at the Dayton the leading bike failed at the 2nd last lap.  A friend of mine could mingle with some of the bike tuners & the header pipe of the rear bbl had done about the end as it had gone black with heat & was starting to come off at any time.  Not that Honda did not continue with the V-twin in 1000cc, but did so on the four heads like the original 750cc four & they are still being produced.  That is why I am satisfied with the '00 Honda 929 & the '03 Honda 954.


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jclax01
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   Posted 1/10/2012 12:27 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
smitty, I had heard of this problem with the flat track bikes over heating because some teams put what we call today a fairing around the enging to help control oil spillage on the track. I may be off base with that, but I heard that from someone before.


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Budoka
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   Posted 1/12/2012 3:13 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
mrmarklin said...

.

 

It's true that by buying a used Harley one does not have to feel like one is riding an "outdated" bike, since only the cognisceti can tell the difference between model years.  Of course, the actual bikes are continually being upgraded in ways that are not always obvious.

One mus always be cognisent of the fact that it is also often not noticeable when riding them, never mind obvioussmilewinkgrin


I never get lost, there's always lots of people telling me where to go!

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Smitty
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   Posted 1/21/2012 10:29 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Casper, did you know that Royal Enfield of England came out with a VERTICAL TWIN, like Triumph started up though Ariel, BSA & Norton came out with their own as well.
 
This is because the main owner of the shop I worked in actually brought in one & used it personally, but we did not purcase one after that though no problems with it at the time or even a bit later.  We had more purchase the vertical twins of Norton, AJS, to Matchless.
 
Still those being produced in India are nothing more then one lungers or 350cc to 500cc & never a twim, but they did try with a diesel, but soon gave up even in India.


Remember all the others on the road are crazy & out to kill you.

Post Edited (Smitty) : 1/21/2012 5:32:00 PM GMT

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