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The Texas Arranger
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   Posted 12/30/2003 8:17 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ok so I was reading another post on here about making pipes louder when I saw it causes lost power.
So heres mine:
I wanted to make my honda cm450c louder (sounded like a damn civic) so I drilled like 6 maybe little under 1/2" holes in each can.... and ever since it does seem like the power has kind of tanked.
It just doesnt have the 'oomph' that it used to.
What do I need to do to fix this?
Re-jet? How, what does that mean/encompass?
Or am I better off just putting back on a set of normal cans from the parts bike?
(oh, and now instead of soundling like a civic it sounds like a big lawnmower. yeehaw!)
 
Beetlejuice 82 Honda cm450 Custom

Post Edited (The Texas Arranger) : 11/3/2004 5:09:35 PM GMT


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SilverDragon
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   Posted 12/30/2003 9:04 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
you trashed your pipes ....

the exhaust is more than just a pipe - it is an engineered part of teh engine - just like the air intake is - it's tuned and in balance - you screwed it up

go do some reading ....


this is cut and pasted but might have a kenel in it for your situation....

BABailey said...

the baffles are the cross plates inside that stop the noise from flowing straight out (baffles the path) they are the heart of the muffler ... drilling the baffles not only lets the sound out louder it also opens up some of the air flow path and might require you to re-jet the carb - especially if you also do something similar to help open up the air intake side too ...

i strongly suggest you take the time to go and read the sites i am adding below ...pay special attention to the ones marked with the ***asterkists*** ... be aware that drilling or removing the baffles is often an illegal procedure and sometimes has a detrimential affect of engine performance by altering the back pressure etc...

www.j-pcycles.com/shop/mufflermouth.asp

www.roadkill.com/~davet/moto/muffler.html

***
www.mtariders.com/mctech/honda/shadow/BAFFLE.HTM
***

mmshadowt.50megs.com/2ktourer/drilling/drilling.htm

www.magnariders.com/html/TipTrick/Stock_Muffler.htm

www.directparts.com/static/articles/baffles.html

***
www.rollingthunderdyno.com/tech/pipes.html
***

***
www.samsonusa.com/faq.html
***

and READ THE SECTION ON EXHAUST here
***
www.peganet.net/personal_pages/ironman1/harley.html
***

a muffler is not 'just a pipe' it is a designed part of the engine - so be very sure you know what you are doing before taking a drill to it

aftermarket pipes are available that have been designed for sound and performance factors



HOPE SOMETHING HERE HELPS


...and i used the post here to help forestall someone's hasty drilling spree and let them pause to consider carefully what they are doing with their muffler before acting

a muffler is not 'just a pipe' it is a designed part of the engine - so be very sure you know what you are doing before taking a drill to it

Post Edited (SilverDragon) : 12/31/2003 4:05:41 AM GMT

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Johnny Monsoon
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   Posted 12/30/2003 9:18 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Where'd you drill them? If it was far back, there's likely very little effect, but if it was in front of the 'silencer' you've likely changed things a bit- though on a bike as old as yours, there's probably not a ton of difference.

My advice? If you want a louder exhaust, buy a pre-fab one and do the jetting.


 
Johnny Monsoon
Jam harder, penetrate deeper, dispense longer...
 

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The Texas Arranger
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   Posted 12/31/2003 6:43 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yuck. The only pre-fab I can find for my bike is a Mac-Megaphone 2 into 1 system... and I like the look of 2 pipes.
Well, guess Ill take the pipes off the parts bike.
And go back to sounding like a damn civic.
You know whats funny (and unrelated), speaking of civics? I keep hearing/seeing these civics that people have put some sort of exhaust system on that makes em loud, but they sound like my little 200! I just think 'Get over it, its a civic!'
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The Texas Arranger
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   Posted 12/31/2003 6:57 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Wait a minute.... this is confusing. Some of those sites you listed are all about drilling, some tottaly against it. Some of the sites say opening em up should give you MORE horsepower, others less....
whats the deal?
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Deacon Blues
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   Posted 1/1/2004 2:24 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
the whole "straight pipes equals more HP" thing assumes that the entire fuel-air system has been reworked. If you put on a 'big air' kit, or scrap the stock airbox and put on pod K&N's, then you're leaning the gas/air mix. So you rejet the carb. Now the engine can suck in more air and more gas, BUT... the exhaust still only allows so much to pass through it. So you need to put on aftermarket pipes to take full advantage.

And yes, mufflers are designed to let a certain amount of exhaust gases flow through at a certain rate. I'm not hep to the specifics, but I do know that changing the backpressure can (and sometimes does) have lousy aftereffects on performance.



 "Don't look at the cones!  You look at the cones, you run over the cones!"
 - unnamed CMSP instructor, Vallejo CA, Oct 2001

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SilverDragon
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   Posted 1/1/2004 5:24 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
more air in requires more air out and vice versa - more air out requires more air in

BOTH SIDES of teh air flow must be balanced - intake and exhaust

more air flow through requires a carb tune or rejet (or efi remap) to allow more fuel mix to happen

when DONE PROPERLY the result is more horsepower

when NOT done porperly the result is asthma and a loss of HP

back pressure from a properly set up pipe is needed to help with engine performance - just opening it up can ruin the balance and a loss happens (as you noticed)

the WHOLE SYSTEM needs to be balanced and in tune with the sum of it's parts - changing one aspect requires the other aspects to be recalibrated as well

read it all and make your own conclusions based on eduated considerations

a muffler is not 'just a pipe' it is a designed part of the engine - so be very sure you know what you are doing before taking a drill to it


those who are against it are considering the performance aspects
those who are for it just want a louder sound cheap (and it sounds cheap and obnoxious)

stage one is usually a trio of mods (and they need to be balanced to work together)
- higher flow air filter change
- higher flow exhuast pipe change
- carb rejet to make use of the higher flow through (or remap on EFI systems)

Post Edited (SilverDragon) : 1/2/2004 12:30:13 AM GMT

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Johnny Monsoon
'99 Honda Blackbird



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   Posted 1/1/2004 6:14 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Bikes are a bit different than cars here. Backpressure is an arcane method of helping the valves seal so the engine works best to create power. Bikes still use this method because you can put lighter springs in the valve system and allow the engine to rev higher with less work. That's all well and good unless you want to change either the sound or performance of your engine. Often you can get increased performance by de-restricting the flow of gasses out the exhaust pipe because the manufacturers have had to ensure their bikes didn't exceed noise levels- so you can afford to loose some audio baffle to permit gasses to more easily exit the bikes. The downside to this is that you can rapidly get to a point where you're causing your valves not to stay correctly seated through the entire stroke.

With cars (at least anything from the late '70s onward) you actually have a 'tuned' system. This means that not only does the engine NOT requrie any backpressure, but that the exhaust system will actually cause a low pressure spot and suck the exhaust gasses out. Again, you'll often find some noise pollution excesses there which can be lost to improve things, but overall it's a solid system.

Anyway, back to bikes: Since there's no cat converters on most bikes the manufacturers have had to really lean out the engine. That combination, in addition to a freer flowing exhaust system, will cause the bike's fuel mix to become 'overlean'. In your case you simply shim the needles and get wider jets.

My advice? Just leave well enough alone and live with the civic sound. It was designed to run a certain way- and it'll be difficult to improve that. I had a '78 KZ400 that I did extensive unmodifying to because so many hands had tried to make it run better- putting it back to stock config cured all it's ails.


 
Johnny Monsoon
Jam harder, penetrate deeper, dispense longer...
 

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louemc
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   Posted 1/2/2004 12:19 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Silver D, and Johnny M, give the advice needed, (I think, I read through it pretty fast), but at any rate, go back to stock cans. There is a near 100% bogus info in this subject, and, when someone doesn't know what they are doing, but expects to blunder into a result that they want, it isn't going to happen. Glad to hear that stock cans are available to put on, most people make a mistake that costs big bucks to fix. :-)


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CaddmannQ
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   Posted 1/2/2004 6:21 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hey T.A?

I drilled the muflers on my CM450, and opened up the airbox as well. To make it run; however, I had to rejet the carbs, including changing out the needles.

It took several tries to do a good job, but then I knew where I was heading in the first place when I did it. It was not my first hop-up job.

The point is that it can be done, but it takes time effort and a bit of knowlege.


Cadd
Clovis CA
VROC #11619
2004 Nomad

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Mac_Muz
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   Posted 1/3/2004 8:33 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Real good stuff SD and JM.. This is a keeper.... Mac

ps Johnny.... a 85 Saab no letters 8 valve sucks with a bad exhaust leak.... Causes skipping, no torque, and sounds huffy... Don't ask how I know.. Mac
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TwinCam
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   Posted 1/29/2004 1:22 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Here's an article I just sent to ABATE of Indiana. Note the website I referenced in there has some great info on exhaust pipes and power.


Sound advice

One of the great things about ABATE members, is that we are like the old saying “What do you get when you put two Baptists in one room? Three opinions”. We don’t always agree on things, but that keeps it interesting.
I’m not going to gain a bunch of friends out of this article, but I think it’s worth the mention, nonetheless.
I noticed in the ABATE items for sale in the last issue; one of the items is a sticker that says “Loud Pipes Saves Lives”, or something like that. Then I’ve also heard many people say (and I’ll take out the rough spots) “Well, too bad, it’s a free world, if you don’t like’em that’s too bad, it’s my bike”. Or, “I didn’t want it to sound like a Hoover vacuum cleaner”, or “I like’em loud and proud”.
Seems one of the first things many people do to their new V-twin bikes is put new pipes on it. Just a personal opinion, but I like my stock pipes just fine. That’s me. But here’s a few things to consider, before you run right out there and slap on that new set of V&H straight Shots, or any other aftermarket pipes to get more sound or horsepower.
If adding new pipes is all that you are going to do to it, chances are you will actually loose 5-10% horsepower right off the git-go in most cases. The engine design is tuned to have some backpressure, which you are taking away. Not a good thing in most cases. And if you do plan to increase the air/fuel mixture volume with jetting/air cleaner/ mapping, etc., you will generally gain horsepower on the top end of the RPM band, but still often loose in the mid-range, where you hopefully do most of your riding. One of my cyber pals at V-twin café’ Motorcycle Performance Guide for Harley-Davidsons and I had this discussion one day. He suggested that Khrome werks were his personal pick for improved all around performance, and they were also one of the quietest pipes on the market as well. There are also other brands to choose from. They have done extensive testing on pipes and there is much good data to look at on their website http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/ if you are interested.
Now that we have looked at the added power aspect of new pipes, I’d like to move on to the added safety aspect.
Chances are, that the car that’s going to get you will be pulling out from your right side. He didn’t pay attention, didn’t see, or hear you. But my loud pipes will make a difference you say. Well, chances are, they won’t. Sound travels around 800 feet per second, faster than the combined speed you and the other driver are hopefully traveling towards each other. But there’s a little problem with that theory. Most of the sound coming out of your bike is behind you. It wouldn’t usually be heard until you are past the point of impact with another vehicle. Well, now maybe if you were in the adjoining lane, just behind the vehicle that was going to swing into your lane, he would hear the bike that’s true. But chances are, the windows are rolled up, the radio is on, and it’s not really going to happen that way. The difference in 80 and 100 decibels (generally stock vs. straight pipes) usually won’t do you any favors as far as safety is concerned, and if anyone has some data to support that it does, I’d love to see it.
There’s just one more thing I would like you to consider. It may not seem worth mention to some, but I think it’s important to think about. While you might think loud pipes are cool and sound great, it really does turn off many people to motorcycles. Why do I care what they think, you may ask? Well, just like the air we all breathe, we should probably consider that we all have to share the sounds in our world as well. It’s one thing to “rack-em off” out in the middle of a lonely stretch of nowhere, but it’s simply rude to crack the throttle in the middle of town at a busy intersection in my opinion. Yes, I used to do that very same thing in my old hot rods as a kid. But I would like to think I’ve learned to respect others a little more as I have grown older (much older). I’d like to see the whole world on motorcycles someday myself. There are already enough people out there who have their minds made up that they are a bad thing. I don’t need to add fuel to the fire. I can’t please everyone, and I won’t try, but that’s a small price to pay in my mind, by simply trying to have a little respect for others for a start. Maybe that’s it, I’m just too dad blamed old to appreciate the sound. Well, that just may be, but as long as my hearing hasn’t failed me yet, I’m all ears to listen to someone else’s opinions.

Jeff Davis


WWW.LifeandMotorcycles.com

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SilverDragon
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   Posted 1/29/2004 11:08 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.



Post Edited (SilverDragon) : 12/30/2005 11:03:36 PM GMT


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TwinCam
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   Posted 1/30/2004 6:40 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I guess you would call that short and to the point huh? Good one SD


WWW.LifeandMotorcycles.com

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drag
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   Posted 3/31/2004 10:04 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I read that the shockwave caused by the explosion of the gasses can interfere with the flow of the gasses creating a power loss.

I put a CB 450 motor on my CB 500. The pipes are really loud becaus the baffles are loose. It runs very well and sounds pretty good too, lol... On some bikes backpressure makes a huge difference. On others it's no biggie.
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R&D tech
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   Posted 4/5/2004 1:02 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Just put in a bigger pilot jet ,reset the idle air screw.
generally speaking with this stock exhaust modification all you need is a little more fuel on the bottom. A main jet change should not be needed, unless you alter the stock air box also. If you are fuel injected even easier, add a TFI and add just a little fuel on the green pot (Idle cruise fuel adjustment) Hope this helps.
R&D Tech
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tonyholbury
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   Posted 9/3/2004 3:24 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Just to show i do know something....if its a two stroke, DONT drill the baffles, two strokes rely heavily on a tuned exhaust to scavange the exhaust gases from the cylinder, the baffle back echoes some of the pressure wave, this echoes out of the cylinder and helps drag out the exhaust gases, removing the back pressure kills the back pulse and you lose power, i'm a seventies lad, two strokes were the more popular at the time and amateur exhaust mangling was common as muck!


Sometimes you have to upset the dumb ones to educate the smart ones!

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bobbo
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   Posted 4/9/2005 4:02 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I realize this is an old thread, but it has some merit. I have had many bikes in my past. Two strokes, four strokes and I have modified them all to run better than stock. One of the things that happen always is that the exhaust gets louder. On my present main bike, I have fishtail pipes, w/baffles. I ran them straight at first, and the bike ran fantastic. I baffled them cause they were just too obnoxiously loud. The Victory bikes are fuel injected and one of the things with most Vics is that they either run too rich or too lean. Mine ran too rich, no matter what the wrench did, he could not get it to run correctly. I installed the straight pipes ran the setup program (or had it run) and managed to get the richness to a manageable level using the techlusion, FI module. When I put the baffles back in, the richness increased, and I had to have the ECM Map reloaded. We managed through a time consuming process to get the bike right again.

Bikes do not have to sound anemic to run correctly. As far as noise is concerned, the number of cars with mega-wattage stereos and loud euro mufflers on them is much greater and cause far more problems than a few loud bikes. Loud pipes may not always save lives, but I found that cages pay more attention to me when my bike is loud, than they did when it sounded like a civic.

It as been said before, but more air out, means you have to have more air, and usually more fuel in.

I also have found those people who talk about the size of their equipment usually are the ones who are deficient, especially if they advertise it.


Robert Miller
U.S. Army Ret.

Victory V92TCD Ultra
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention
of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to
skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out,
proclaiming loudly. . . . . "Wow - What a ride!"
(Stolen from another)

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1Hawk
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   Posted 7/14/2005 11:26 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Loud pipes don't save lives, smart riders do...........

 

The sound wave is behind you not in front although awareness may be affected if the cage window is down the stereo is off and the rider is playing with the throttle while going 2 mph between cages. I thought the sound advise document was a joke when it came out and I still do as the AMA has better things to do. 

 

Hawk


 

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V-Twininator
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   Posted 7/16/2005 3:33 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
1Hawk said...
The sound wave is behind you not in front
Hawk - If I remember my college physics correctly, sound waves propogate 360 degrees from the source, with varying degrees of intensity.  Unless of course you are moving supersonic.  Otherwise you would never hear the bike/car/plane/mosquito coming up from behind you. 
But then, I could be wrong.
V-T
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CaddmannQ
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   Posted 7/16/2005 4:27 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
It's always going to be louder behind you than in front of you, but the noise does go forward.

Anyone that doesn't think so hasn't been paying attention in traffic.

I can always hear people approaching from the rear, and if their mufflers are louder, I hear them louder.

Un-muffled intake roar makes a lot of noise too, and it doesn't necessarilly point rearward.

That being said, I run dual baffled glasspacks and no sane person should have a bike any louder than mine on the street.


Cadd
2004 Nomad 1500
VROC #11619 Rolling Blunder #128

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SilverDragon
yes, it's a dragon



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   Posted 10/1/2005 5:14 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
MillenniumRebel said...
been warnings that the biggie rallies are starting to confisicate straight piped bikes
(or rather the city/county/state/fed/atf/dea/abc/xyz/wtf'eva leo's are)

www.fosters.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050327/NEWS50/50327052/-1/NEWS20

forums.ebay.com/db1/thread.jspa?threadID=175752&start=120

CD said...
09-20-2004, 12:15 PM

We can either stand by and pretend it won't happen and then whine as the EPA mandates DB and smog inspections in a few years or join the AMA, ABATE and other groups that fight for your rights.

It is easy to say you won't comply or whatever but when they are hauling
your pride and joy off to impound and you off to the cooler then what?

hotroadking said...
09-20-2004, 12:58 PM

CD is correct,

We've been lucky so far, but now that HD craze is spreading and more and more motorcycles hit the road, then somebody takes a look.

Louder method of pipes simply causes those that hate loud pipes to fight harder, if they can't get sound barriers (difficult to enforce) they go EPA, so you can't tamper without issues.

In some parts of the country we don't have EPA stations, but that too will change, In germany they have big problems with police stopping to inspect muffler systems, etc.

Coming, heck it's already here.


forum.motorcycle-usa.com/default.aspx?f=17&p=1&m=154332

www.babeonhd.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=455



http://www.blueknights.org/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000080.html

http://www.virginiawind.com/byways/loud_pipes_save_lives.asp

Duke said...
The thing with loud pipes is that there are _two_ ways they can get you.

They can get you for muffler viloations (some states want 'mufflers', some want 'baffles' etc) if you are local. If you are tagged and _liscenced_ out of state (usually only _one_ of those won't save you from a ticket; you need both), then some states can't get you for those violations (Depending on how their laws are constructed).

But they _can_ get you for violating a noise ordinance, no matter where your tags are from. Legally, 'noise' is a thing all by itself, no matter what your 'pipes' do or don't pass.



Post Edited (SilverDragon) : 10/1/2005 12:19:18 PM GMT

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Greywolf
Fuzzy Logic Inc.



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   Posted 11/6/2005 2:45 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
If you're counting on your pipes to save you - do yourself a lifesaving favor and sell your bike...

I'd just as soon mine were as quiet as possible for deer hunting season.

And yeah - a 2stroke is a tuned system. An expansion chamber pipe will significantly change the way your bike runs PROVIDED IT IS SEALED.

If it leaks, the whole thing is useless.
(See also: "HORKED")
 
(On Edit)
Seems to me you can have noise, or you can have preformance. Even in 4-stroke systems, a really good setup will max your available HP. If it has holes in it - so will your power curve.
 
Besides - those same holes will let rain water in. Water+exhaust gas = Rusted, busted, & crud encrusted...
 
Peoples used to punch holes in mufflers in street rods to make them sound more awesome. That was way back in the sixties... You only have to "POGO" on your muffler once to realise it was expensive and dumb.
Ten years later, God gave us the "glasspack", and before it was over we all had Thrush Turbo's and "H" pipes...
 
Did you know that Mustangs sound like they do because FORD spent gadzillions of warbucks developing the "POWERTONE" muffler?


This is no Kawasaki... It's a KAWALSKI!

Post Edited (Greywolf) : 11/7/2005 11:15:55 PM GMT

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SilverDragon
yes, it's a dragon



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   Posted 3/21/2006 9:11 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
forum.motorcycle-usa.com/default.aspx?f=17&m=251611
martinjmpr said...
Found this on another website, don't know if it's been posted here before:


What do your loud pipes say about you?


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Honda tech
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Date Joined Apr 2006
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   Posted 4/17/2006 8:07 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
You have to look at your engine as a balanced see saw at the park ,with your fuel system at one ens and your exaust at the other. If you mahe a chaneg at the exaust end you will have to make a change at the fuel end to make it balance again.You may not see a great performance gain from drilling the mufflers though,but with out getting the mixture of fuel and air corrected you will notice a performance loss.Your bike has a carburetor with a 3 jet system (main,mid,Pilot) and can be difficult to jet if you are not familliar with it.Knowing how to read spark plugs and kanowing what RPM/Throttle position that each componant in the carb works at is important ot getting it done correctly.It might just need a shim under the needle or a MJ change but you should get a tech that is familliar with the older bikes to dial in your carbs.
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