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girth4x
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   Posted 12/5/2011 8:20 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I recently had a major problem with my 2011 crf450r. The honda shop told me that oil did not get to the head of the bike because there was no oil in the bike, but I know thats BS. Anyways I have to rebuid my engine so I'm looking for suggestions on what do so that I realy have a good bike.
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Easy Rider 2
Central Illinois / Central Florida

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   Posted 12/6/2011 6:17 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
girth4x said...
 Anyways I have to rebuid my engine so I'm looking for suggestions on what do so that I realy have a good bike.
Have you ever done a total rebuild on an engine before ?
If not, find someone to help who HAS.
 
And if the cause was lack of oil, regardless of the reason, replace EVERYTHING that needs oil, except maybe the valves and cams.
ALL bearings, rings, etc.
If you don't, it's likely that you just be doing it again later.
 
 


'06 Suzuki S50 (VS800)
'07 Honda Shadow VLX 600
 

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Andy VH
Where is the earth shattering kaboom!?



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   Posted 12/6/2011 10:15 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I agree. Honda singles, like most Japanese engines require a lot of fresh, clean oil delivered at fairly high oil pressure to the top end. Even my old Honda CB750 would produce nearly 50 psi oil pressure at idle. Unless Honda did somehting wrong at the factory, that engine should easily go for many hundreds of hours of running before needing any more than routine maintenance. How many hours are on the engine? What does the owner's manual say for initial oil change and hours to change? Initial running/break-in is critical especially on a high stressed engine like the CRF450.

On my Suzuki DRZ400E (very similar engine design to the CRF450), the INITIAL oil & filter change is after ONLY five hours of running time. Then the next oil change is at 60 hours running time. My DRZ400 only holds 1.9 quarts of oil, so I bet your CFR450 is very similar. With LESS than two quarts of oil in the system, correct oil level is CRITICAL for survival. Even 1/2 a quart down is already a 26% reduction in oil level. My DRZ400 requires 10 hours running time at less than 1/2 throttle and up to 15 hours running time at less than 3/4 throttle for the initial break in period. These engines are nothing like car engines when it comes to initial care to insure any kind of a reliable life.

At initial break-in, that engine was likely using oil. Did you watch the oil level and not let it get low? Cause damage can be severe and quick. If Honda did something wrong at the factory, I'd bet that engine would have failed in the first 20 hours of run time. But even low oil, especially in a engine with minimal oil capacity, can be detrimental if you are climbing hills, doing wheelies, etc, because the oil moves to the back of the sump and it may starve the pickup to the pump. Even brief starving of the pump can produce cavitation and air when the cam carriers require constant oil delivery.

These modern engines are very reliable IF they have good oil delivery. Without it, damage happens quickly. The cams run on a thin film of oil in plain aluminum bushing cam carriers and caps. Without oil, those bushings are ruined in a few hundred rpm. The cam journals "may" be cleaned up with some care and diligent use of fine emery cloth.

Did the dealer do any internal evaluation of the engine before telling you it need a rebuild? Did they analyze the oil that was in the sump? If you get that oil analyzed and it shows high levels of aluminum and other alloys, then the dealer is right and the engine was starved of oil, and you have major internal damage.

If you have not done major engine rebuilds in the past (the fact that you are asking the question leads to me to think you have not done this in the past), then you are best to have a reputable shop do the work. IF any warranty is left on the bike, then take it to the dealer for the work. If no warranty remains, then find a good, reputable independent shop that is familiar with Honda singles and pay them to do the work. Last thing you want is an enduro that strands you 50 miles from your truck in the middle of nowhere. The cam chain, chain tensioner, cams, valves, bottom end, "may" be good. But the piston/con-rod assembly, valve guides, cam carriers/caps, oil pump, heck even the cylinder bore, are likely shot if starved of oil. A leak-down test done by a qualified mechanic may tell more about the extent of damage and nuber of parts to replace. Be assured this is not gonna be cheap, could easily be $1000 total.


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Post Edited (Andy VH) : 12/6/2011 5:21:01 PM GMT

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Andy VH
Where is the earth shattering kaboom!?



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   Posted 12/7/2011 4:02 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hmmm,...a first time poster with an urgent request for help with an engine rebuild,....and then no reply.

Guess he didn't like our response?


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girth4x
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   Posted 12/7/2011 6:37 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks for all the info. And yes I am new to blogging. There is no warranty on a 450R because it is typically a race bike, but in some situations honda will help. Not mine of course because they will not admit any fault in manufacturing. They said if there had been other circumstances that other bikes have had then it would be a common thread and likely something wrong with thier engine, but they have not seen many bikes with the same problem. The reason i baught a new bike in the first place was that I did'nt want to fix anything for a while. My old bike is a 2003 Yamaha 450. It runs good but a little worn out from climbing the hills in the tillamook Oregon forest. It would have been much cheaper at this point to keep fixing it. And the new bike total expected cost on parts is $2,000 using honda or stock parts and $1,000 for rebuild. This does not include doing the piston, witch it is odd that there is nothing wrong with that but the cams, bearings, crankshaft, various seals, and $520.00 cylinder head assembly are all needing to be replaced according to the bike shop. Im not sure i believe them fully, but should I go back with stock parts or maybe get some aftermarket stuff? Maybe I should even do a little more engine work while Im down there. I know the bike has plenty of power for a guy that is typically not the fastest or the youngest at the mx track, but I worry that I might be making a mistake by putting the same stuff back in the engine that failed in the first place. And when Im shopping for something I usualy buy the nicer or better made product vurses the least expensive one on the shelf. I NEED YOUR HELP. The shop keeps calling me wondering what to do with it because its been in there so long...
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Andy VH
Where is the earth shattering kaboom!?



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   Posted 12/7/2011 8:47 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Well, you can save a lot of bucks going with parts from other bikes people are parting out. You could probably find a complete cylinder, piston/conrod, head assembly for less than $500. Freshen up what you have to and build that onto your original crankcase. I would still install a new oil pump and rotor. You'd save a lot of bucks this way. May even be best off $$ wise to find a good complete used engine, put that in your bike and sell what you can of your bike's engine. The lower cases and tranny are probably ok.

Aftermarket stuff like a piston and con-rod from Wiseco is ok, but for all the rest I'd go strictly Honda. Maybe check out the CRF450 forums on the web to find a shop specializing in building CRFs and send the whole engine to them instead of your local shop? You might spend the same, but get a truly "built" motor for your money.

Sorry to be cynical in my earlier message. We get a lot of one time posters on this forum who cry foul about their bike and then never show up again.
 
If the local dealer is saying the engine was starved of oil, how can you be sure the piston is ok? Have you seen the inside of the engine? When a high performance engine like the CRF heats up due to lack of oil, a LOT of severe wear happens really quick. If the piston ring grooves and skirts are scorched, the piston is toast,  and it would probably take the cylinder with it.

IF you have strong mechanical skills, a decent work shop, good tool selection, a lot of time and patience, you can do this yourself. But if you have never done any mechanical work beyond an oil change and chain replacement, then send it to a pro.


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Post Edited (Andy VH) : 12/8/2011 3:51:30 AM GMT

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el SID
merely a man equipped with a bag a seedless grapes



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   Posted 12/8/2011 4:18 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
If you arent happy with the diagnosis go pick up the bike,take some bins to get the parts and take it somewhere else. While unlikely, there is a possibility they are wrong. If the top half failed due to oil starvation,then some other parts took on undo stress as well. I like OEM parts. generally over engineered and have a longer life span. Did you follow hondas break in procedures? If not,this could be the cause of the failure. good luck I would question the piston deal.


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1973 kawasaki h1
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Easy Rider 2
Central Illinois / Central Florida

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   Posted 12/8/2011 8:28 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
girth4x said...
but I worry that I might be making a mistake by putting the same stuff back in the engine that failed in the first place. And when Im shopping for something I usualy buy the nicer or better made product vurses the least expensive one on the shelf. I NEED YOUR HELP. The shop keeps calling me wondering what to do with it because its been in there so long...
I think that serioiusly considering this a "do it yourself" project.......given what you have said......would be a BIG mistake, both time wise and probably money wise too.
 
I suggest that you should eat your losses and sell the bike for parts and get something else that actually runs.
 
AND.......from here on out, check the oil EVERY day; if you ride a lot in a day, more than once a day.
 
 
 


'06 Suzuki S50 (VS800)
'07 Honda Shadow VLX 600
 

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Andy VH
Where is the earth shattering kaboom!?



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   Posted 12/8/2011 1:46 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
If the shop spent any time taking the engine apart to view the internal damage, then you have to take their word for the damage done and parts to replace. Any reputable shop is not going to chance their reputation on using iffy parts. They want it done right, once. If they have not taken it apart, then at least have them remove the head and cylinder to see what the internals look like. The cam chain can be tied in place so it doesn't drop into the crankcase. On a CRF450 that should take less than an hour, about $80 of service time. To me, right now, this is the minimum to do before deciding what move is next.

Unless someone has taken the engine apart to that level at least, it is a guess at best to the damage inside. Then, ONLY if you have a LOT of experience taking an engine apart and evaluating what can be re-used and what needs to be replaced, only if you have the background of knowing can you chance reusing any of the current parts. And of those parts, I say maybe 30%, at bet, may be eligible to reuse if the engine was indeed starved of oil.

Still haven't told us how long you were riding the bike and how many estimated hours were on the engine.


Training, the best safety and performance "equipment" you can get!
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