Motorcycle USA Forums : Join the Revolution
  HomeLog InRegisterCommunity CalendarSearch the ForumHelp
   
Motorcycle Message Board - Motorcycle USA > MotorcycleUSA.com! > Newbies! > Why is 500cc a starter bike but not 600cc  Forum Quick Jump
 
You cannot post new topics in this forum. You cannot reply to topics in this forum. Printable Version
39 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page :
 1  2 
[ | Show Newest Post First ]

cheddy
Registered Member

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Apr 2009
Total Posts : 15
 
   Posted 4/21/2009 4:09 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

More of a technical question here.

 

I am trying to pick out my first bike and I can't quite understand why a 500cc motorcycle is considered a good beginners bike while just 100cc more is considered a super-bike that a beginner is just asking for trouble to even consider using as a first bike.

 

Is it compression ratio, turning, or something else I do just not understand?

Back to Top
 

GAJ
Registered Member



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Jul 2007
Total Posts : 6845
 
   Posted 4/21/2009 4:27 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Well, I started on a 50cc 35 years ago, but to answer your question, I'm assuming you're talking about a standard like the Kawi 500 vs. a Sportbike, like the Kawi ZX6R.

One is around $5,000 new while the other is over $8,000 new, so right there, without talking performance, the 600 has a 60% premium over the 500.

That premium, and crash statistics, will also lead to much higher insurance for a 600 Sportbike.

The 500 will do 0-60 in about 4.5 seconds while the 600 will do it in about 3 seconds. One is very fast (compared to a car) the other is blisteringly fast.

The 500 will do the 1/4 mile in about 13 seconds at 98mph while the 600 will do it in under 11 seconds and damned close to 130mph.

Because of the way power is made on the 500, it is "friendlier" and easier to modulate and because of the seating position it is easier to maneuver the 500 at "normal" street speeds for newer riders.

The 500 if you drop it in a parking lot might suffer $100 in damage while the $600 might be at least $500.

The 500's seating position also sits you higher, with eyes level, giving you much better vision.

If you want a bike that looks sportier, but offers many of the advantages of the 500, I would recommend the Ninja 250 because it is more than 70 pounds lighter than either of those bikes.

If you prefer something fugly with exceptional suspension and even better vision, I'd recommend the DRZ400SM that recently beat the Ninja 250 as best small caliber bike in one of the glossy moto mags.

I have a DRZ400SM as one of my bikes and believe me, it is a hoot for new and old riders alike.

But pretty it isn't!

I'm sure others will expand on my start here.

By the way; excellent question. cool

Happy hunting after your MSF course.

Post Edited (GAJ) : 4/22/2009 6:53:15 PM GMT

Back to Top
 

jon
Registered Member

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 5959
 
   Posted 4/21/2009 4:43 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
cheddy said...

 

I am trying to pick out my first bike and I can't quite understand why a 500cc motorcycle is considered a good beginners bike while just 100cc more is considered a super-bike that a beginner is just asking for trouble to even consider using as a first bike.

just depends on who you ask but most would think that a smaller, lighter and less powerful bike is a better starter bike because that's what they've observed in their experiences.  me, on the other hand, started on a big bike and have seen others start on big, small, this type, that type, high power and low power bikes and it really comes down to the individual and how he/she go about learning how to ride safely.  regardless of which bike, getting the bike that you feel safe and comfortable starting on should be the bike for you.  it's funny, i visit sportbike sites from time to time and many on those sites don't recommend starting on a liter bike or bigger but a 600 and 750 bike is recommended as good starter bikes.  shakehead  so as i've said, just depends on who you talk to but regardless of what others think, do what's best for you because we're not all the same. 
Back to Top
 

cheddy
Registered Member

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Apr 2009
Total Posts : 15
 
   Posted 4/21/2009 4:43 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Great information, thanks a lot.

Is it right to say that the 500's are designed entirely with the beginning rider in mind where as the 600s are specifically made for racing. That is... there is a whole lot more different than just the engine size when comparing the two?
Back to Top
 

KF
Registered Member

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Oct 2005
Total Posts : 437
 
   Posted 4/21/2009 5:59 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I started with a Honda Elite 80 scooter. Then I saw the Kawa BN125 when I took the Basic Rider Course. I rode the Honda 250 Nighthawk for the course but I really liked the looks of the Eliminator BN125. So I traded up the Elite 80 for a new 2004 Eliminator and have been commuting on it since May of 04 through five New York winters. I have thought about the Kawa Vulcan 500 but I’m enjoying the hell out of my “125”.
GAJ has good advice about the 500, especially the Kawasaki cruisers. They are built with double cradle high tensile steel frames. They have a low seat height, positive neutral finder, they shift well, stop well, and have low to mid range torque. If my 125 will do 60+mph on the interstate, the 500 will rocket you into tomorrow.
Not to forget the 250’s, they cruise at 70mph, there easy on gas and insurance and cheap to maintain. The Nighthawk and the GZ-250 are good bets. They also use them at the Basic Rider Course.
PS- If you’re just starting out as a rider, you really need to realize the power these motorcycles have. Sport bikes are light, they have a short wheel base, and as GAJ stated are “blisteringly fast”.


Ride Slow,anticipate hazards!

Back to Top
 

jon
Registered Member

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 5959
 
   Posted 4/21/2009 6:20 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
cheddy said...where as the 600s are specifically made for racing.
not always true either, just depends on who you talk to.  yes, some get it for racing but some get it because they like the looks of it better or the way it rides or because it's more comfortable (yes, i have heard of rr sportbike riders said that their bikes are the most comfortable bike for them) and other reasons.  one of the members here (Red Dog) has a gsx-1000r and uses it for touring and he has tour on it for thousands of miles with his wife (Momma Hen) on the back.  I don't think he race with it much.  therefore a sportbike is as good of a street bike as other type, just like a sportcar is as good as any other type of cars on the street, just depends on the person operating it. 

Post Edited (jon) : 4/22/2009 1:36:03 AM GMT

Back to Top
 

RedDog
Retired SportBike Bum



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 13635
 
   Posted 4/21/2009 6:23 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
You're right, Jon. Just do some unserious track days now and then to hone my skills, but no racing.


RedDog
Think Ahead! Travel Light & Leave Your Fears Behind You!
Normal People Scare me! Travel Light and Leave Your Fears Behind You!

Back to Top
 

Richard47
Registered Member



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 5552
 
   Posted 4/22/2009 2:11 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Although there is only 100cc difference between, say, a 500 Suzuki twin and a GSXR600 there is a lot of difference in the machines themselves. You can't compare bikes just on the basis of engine size. The 500 is a softly tuned general purpose machine and the 600 is a highly tuned sports bike designed primarily for going fast.


Toilet Brush Dog Owner

Back to Top
 

Dr. Bombay
Registered Member

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Oct 2004
Total Posts : 1328
 
   Posted 4/22/2009 5:09 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Richard, right on.

Forgive me for beating a dead horse, but this is one of my pet peeves. We're all guilty sometimes of using engine displacement to compare bikes. While that might have been fairly accurate 40 years ago, it really has very little relevance now.

Consider that the typical four-cylinder, liquid-cooled 600cc race replica sportbike makes almost twice as much horsepower as a typical 1500cc air-cooled V-Twin cruiser. They also make almost twice the power as the 500cc vertical twin bikes you're referring to.

But engine power is also just one factor. The 600cc race replica has much sharper steering characteristics, extremely powerful brakes, peaky powerbands, and an extreme, race-oriented riding position, all of which can potentially cause problems for newer riders.
Back to Top
 

HogWild
Registered Member

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 5123
 
   Posted 4/22/2009 5:12 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
This depends on what kind of 500cc or 600cc bike you're talking about. In the cruiser line the difference is no big deal but in the sportbike line that same difference could be huge. By the same token there are some open class 450cc dirt bikes that would make that 600cc crotch rocket seem rather tame in terms of acceleration. In essense, most would want the new rider to have a bike that is both light and a bit underpowered in an effort to keep things a bit more controllable.
Back to Top
 

Sexy Beast
Scootin' Around

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Feb 2009
Total Posts : 249
 
   Posted 4/22/2009 6:11 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Two 650cc bikes, Suzuki Gladius and the Ninja 650 should be looked into, they are designed and marketed for new riders.


2008 CBR-1000RR Silver/Black

Back to Top
 

martinjmpr
08 Triumph Scrambler



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Jun 2003
Total Posts : 4681
 
   Posted 4/22/2009 8:08 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Cheddy: It's a bit of an apples-and-oranges comparison. A 600cc sport bike has a 4 cyl motor, race tuned suspension and a very aggressive riding position. Because there is a 600cc racing class most of the current 600cc sportbikes are derived from racing designs. That's why they're so fast and so expen$ive.

The 500cc "sport" bikes like the Ninja 500 and Suzuki GS500F aren't true sportbikes like the 600's (that is to say, they're not derived from racing bikes.) They have 2 cylinder engines, simpler overall designs and not as many high-tech parts which is why they cost a whole lot less. Now, the companies may market them as "sport bikes" because that's what people are buying, but that's like comparing a Geo Metro convertible with a Corvette convertible. Yes, they're both convertibles but that's about where the comparison ends.

The 500's are fairly old designs, which is a good thing when it comes to beginning motorcycles: It means that the factory has had plenty of time (over 20 years) to work out any problems. It also means that parts are commonly available and inexpensive.

The 500's are more properly classified as "standards" rather than sport bikes. They have true handlebars instead of clip-ons, a more upright seating position, and are tuned more for mid-range power rather than screaming high-end 10,000+ RPM power like the racing bikes.

Now, if you are talking about bikes other than sportbikes, like cruisers or dual sports, then the cc comparison makes sense: That is, a 500cc dual sport and a 650cc dual sport are pretty similar, as are a 500cc cruiser and a 600 or 650cc cruiser (though with cruiser style bikes you also have to consider weight as a factor: The V-star 650 classic may "only" be a 650cc bike but it weighs in at over 500lb, in fact, I think it's close to 600.)


Martin
 
Englewood, CO (Denver suburb)
 
UJM (Universal Japanese Motorcycle) Fanatic
 
 

Back to Top
 

GeoffG
Instant Classic



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Jun 2003
Total Posts : 10791
 
   Posted 4/22/2009 9:35 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
OK, as others have said, 100cc difference in displacement doesn't really make that much difference.

Since you're asking about 500s vs 600s, I'll assume you're talking about sportbikes; eg. Kawasaki Ninja 500 vs the 6000 "Supersports," such as the Kawasaki XZ-6R.

The difference between these bikes goes WAY beyond the displacement difference. The 500 is a parallel twin engine, which has pretty good torque from the two larger cylinders, but doesn't rev all that high and doesnt' have a huge "hit" of power at the top end. It is a tractable, user-friendly engine that makes good power for the street, in a manner that most beginners can learn to handle without any surprises. On the other hand, the 600 is an inline four that is designed and tuned specifically to make maximum horsepower, at the expense of useability; it's four small cylinders have short strokes and it doesn't make much torque, but it'll rev to the moon and produce huge power at the top end of the rev range. It rewards aggressive riding with a performance, but requires skill and experience to handle properly.

The reason the "600s" are such high-performance race bikes is political; there are several racing classes which are limited to 600cc production bikes, and these bikes are produced specifically to compete in those classes. Because the classes require the bikes to be "production" bikes, these bikes are sold as legitimate street bikes (which they are). Note bikes like the Suzuki SV650 and Kawasaki 650R--both of which are considered valid "beginner" bikes even though they're larger in displacement. But there's no professional 650 race class, so these bikes are not produced at the ragged edge of performance (before others tell me, yes I know there is an SV650 spec class, but that's different). You'll also find that in the cruiser world, a 650 is considered a "small" bike.

The other professional race class size is 1000cc, the so-called "Superbikes." These bikes have more power and performance than bikes of far larger displacement.

There used to be a 750cc race class, but it died back in the 80s--however, there is still one 750cc "race" bike produced, the Suzuki GSX-R750 (and the reason why Suzuki continues to produce it is a topic of conversation on boards like this). There are some other "race ready" bikes produced in sizes other than 600 or 1000 cc, but these are usually alternate engine configurations which are sometimes allowed to compete with smaller I4s (because the I4 is one of the best designs for producing max horsepower out of a small displacement). Examples are the Ducati 1198, which competes in the Superbike class, and there are lots of different engine configurations and displacements currently competing in AMA's "Daytona Superbike" class.
Back to Top
 

Well Enuff
--- Regaining my sanity --- one ride at time



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Jul 2006
Total Posts : 1925
 
   Posted 4/22/2009 9:56 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
martinjmpr said...
The V-star 650 classic may "only" be a 650cc bike but it weighs in at over 500lb, in fact, I think it's close to 600.)

2009 V Star Classic
Wet weight: 544 lbs.
2009 Yamaha V-Star 650 Classic
Back to Top
 

louemc
Registered Member



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 17483
 
   Posted 4/22/2009 9:58 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Like everyone that points out the race replica 600cc difference. It's not just displacement its the behavior of how the power is delivered. The 600cc (inline four) race replica's are to appeal and satisfy bikers that have developed skills, not newbies.
 
And..... the racer crouch (clip-on handle bars) is not newbie friendly.  Sit up like a normal person, at least till you find out what the differences are. ;-)


 Focus the forces, Be The Force

Post Edited (louemc) : 4/22/2009 5:01:50 PM GMT

Back to Top
 

cheddy
Registered Member

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Apr 2009
Total Posts : 15
 
   Posted 4/22/2009 11:29 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Lots of great info here
Back to Top
 

GAJ
Registered Member



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Jul 2007
Total Posts : 6845
 
   Posted 4/22/2009 12:00 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
So, cheddy, what are your plans?

MSF course?

Style of bike?

Budget?

Age/size/weight?

If you've ever become proficient at any other activity, (surfing, skiing, scuba diving etc.), you likely would agree that starting cautiously and in a manner that accelerates the level of learning, rather than risk, is the way to go.

Often those who start out in an activity too aggressively give up due to frustration or injury.

Sure, some are "naturals" that can do stuff the majority can't, and progress at an accelerated pace, but that is the minority.

It is too easy to make a fatal error on a motorcycle...even for experienced riders who let their guard down, so most of us preach caution to new riders because, well, we want them to be old riders some day!
Back to Top
 

lionlady
-----Mistress of Novices. -Total miles: 85,000+



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Sep 2003
Total Posts : 2759
 
   Posted 4/22/2009 1:41 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
cheddy said...
Great information, thanks a lot.

Is it right to say that the 500's are designed entirely with the beginning rider in mind where as the 600s are specifically made for racing. That is... there is a whole lot more different than just the engine size when comparing the two?


No.

Horsepower and power to weight ratio are probably more important than just engine size. Then there's throttle sensitivity which will compound the danger on a high powered bike. Especially while you're learning the body english needed to operate a motorcycle safely. It takes some practice to learn to isolate your right wrist/hand from the rest of your body.

P


  ATGATT: Because walking away in disgust, beats riding away in an ambulance.

Post Edited (lionlady) : 7/22/2009 7:55:30 PM GMT

Back to Top
 

cheddy
Registered Member

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Apr 2009
Total Posts : 15
 
   Posted 4/22/2009 1:53 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Passed the MSF course about a month ago and have a pretty good idea of what I am looking for I like the Kawasaki 250R and 500R and am keeping an eye out for similar style bikes in the $3000 range. 25 yrs, 190lbs , Male. I started this thread because everybody says 500cc is good for a first bike then they say that the most common accidents are when new riders buy 600cc sports bikes and couldn't understand the sharp contrast in performance. I have a pretty good idea of my risk tolerance, I've been injured snowboarding enough to know better.
Back to Top
 

GeoffG
Instant Classic



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Jun 2003
Total Posts : 10791
 
   Posted 4/22/2009 2:43 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
cheddy said...
I have a pretty good idea of my risk tolerance, I've been injured snowboarding enough to know better.

Good to hear! (not that you've been injured, but that you have an idea of what risk is)

To use a snowboard analogy: learning to ride on a 600 race replica bike is like a beginner snowboarder heading straight for the black diamond runs. Yeah, he might get down OK, but he wont have as much fun (or learn as quickly) as he would on an easier run.
Back to Top
 

*biketime
Registered Member

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Nov 2008
Total Posts : 6
 
   Posted 4/24/2009 11:09 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'm jumping into this thread because I, too, am looking seriously at a bike--Honda Shadow 650 as my first bike.  I'm 5'4" and 220 lbs. (working on the weight by--recently joined a gym and eating healtier).  I'm not planning on running high speeds, just want something that will be a good fit.  Good idea for this particular bike? 
Back to Top
 

jon
Registered Member

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 5959
 
   Posted 4/24/2009 11:51 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
*biketime said...
 Good idea for this particular bike? 
go sit on one and see if it fits.
Back to Top
 

martinjmpr
08 Triumph Scrambler



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Jun 2003
Total Posts : 4681
 
   Posted 4/24/2009 12:16 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Biketime there's no such thing as a Shadow 650. I assume you mean either the Shadow VLX which is a 600 or the Shadow 750?
The VLX would probably be a good starter bike, the 750 is a bit on the heavy side but it's probably feasible as a starter bike, plus it has some features that make it more user friendly like shaft drive (on the later models) and 5 speed transmission vs. 4 on the VLX (that's got to be the last 4 speed bike still made!)


Martin
 
Englewood, CO (Denver suburb)
 
UJM (Universal Japanese Motorcycle) Fanatic
 
 

Back to Top
 

jon
Registered Member

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 5959
 
   Posted 4/24/2009 12:52 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
martinjmpr said...
Biketime there's no such thing as a Shadow 650. I assume you mean either the Shadow VLX which is a 600 or the Shadow 750?
good catch martin, maybe even a v-star 650. 
Back to Top
 

*biketime
Registered Member

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Nov 2008
Total Posts : 6
 
   Posted 4/24/2009 1:03 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
martinjmpr said...
Biketime there's no such thing as a Shadow 650. I assume you mean either the Shadow VLX which is a 600 or the Shadow 750?
The VLX would probably be a good starter bike, the 750 is a bit on the heavy side but it's probably feasible as a starter bike, plus it has some features that make it more user friendly like shaft drive (on the later models) and 5 speed transmission vs. 4 on the VLX (that's got to be the last 4 speed bike still made!)

You're right, it's a VLX 600.  I was also considering a Suzuki Savage LS650.  That's where the cross numbers got mixed up. However, I'm leaning more toward the Shadow than the Savage at this time. Thanks for the info.

Post Edited (*biketime) : 4/24/2009 8:07:52 PM GMT

Back to Top
 
You cannot post new topics in this forum. You cannot reply to topics in this forum. Printable Version
39 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page :
 1  2 
 
Forum Information
Currently it is Monday, May 29, 2017 8:22 AM (GMT -7)
There are a total of 500,924 posts in 39,661 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
Who's Online
This forum has 21237 registered members. Please welcome our newest member, whhhhhaaaat.
1 Guest(s), 0 Registered Member(s) are currently online.  Details