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mikimoto
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   Posted 5/29/2005 9:50 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I don't normally do group rides, (I'm with Smitty on this one - I'm a solo rider) but on those rare ocassions that I do ride with someone else or a group, it's always staggered. And it depends on who I'm riding with or what I'm in the mood for, as to whether I ride in the front or herd (take the rear).

Miki


  MAD & DOM suck, can someone give me an "Amen"  Ha! Ha!
                            

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Harley Davidson
98 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide, 2004 Roadking



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   Posted 5/30/2005 7:41 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I only ride with two other guys on occasion. We always ride staggered, but will bunch up at stop lights, sometimes. The only time we will ride axle to axle is on open interstate, if traffic is very light, we will ride 3 bikes axle to axle but we are using 2 lanes to do it and like I said traffic is practically no existant. We only do this once in a while, and always keep a sharp eye out for someone comming up behind us, in which case we move over staggered and let them go by us.

Group riding is often proclaimed to be safer then riding alone, but I strongly disagree. Even staggered, it requires more concentration on more things at the same time.


 
     

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ToUtahNow
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   Posted 5/30/2005 8:31 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Side by side may look cool but it is not worth it. I have two friends who were riding back to Iowa after a meet in De Soto, Kansas. They were riding so close when one had a problem he had to avoid the other had no where to go but into a ditch. Bike and body were both broken up pretty badly. Both ended up repaired but it could have been worse.

Mark


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DJoplin
05' R1



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   Posted 6/1/2005 2:05 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I always ride stagger. Interestingly enough, while on my way home from work the last week or so, there was a couple (his and hers) on Harleys right in front of me ( HOV lane). Riding irradically. They must have swapped positions 4 times in a mile or 2. Merging from I-5 to I-405 is not a pretty site in the afternoons. During one of the times they were side-by-side a car started to pull out into the HOV lane in front of them. The lane of traffic the car was pulling out of was almost at a standstill. The guy stuck his leg out in a kicking action at the car and avoided it at the same time. The car got about to its front quarter panel across the white line and stopped. What was he thinking? We were probably traveling at 40mph or so. At that speed he probably would have lost the leg.


HEY LOOK THE SUNS OUT!!.......oops ya missed it.

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HogWild
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   Posted 10/29/2006 4:04 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Harley Davidson said...
I only ride with two other guys on occasion. We always ride staggered, but will bunch up at stop lights, sometimes.


If I'm in town with friends we always ride axle to axle but this is at a very slow speed and we do it to make ourselves more visable. These folks her don't see squat and they have a habit of rear ending bikes. Together it packs us up and gives that gager more to look at as opposed to seeing two objects moving at different distances off their front bumper. Once we get moving at any real speed we stagger off.
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spectrerider
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   Posted 1/10/2007 11:53 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
HogWild said...
Harley Davidson said...
I only ride with two other guys on occasion. We always ride staggered, but will bunch up at stop lights, sometimes.


If I'm in town with friends we always ride axle to axle but this is at a very slow speed and we do it to make ourselves more visible. These folks her don't see squat and they have a habit of rear ending bikes. Together it packs us up and gives that gager more to look at as opposed to seeing two objects moving at different distances off their front bumper. Once we get moving at any real speed we stagger off.
....that makes about as much sense as ''LOUD PIPES SAVES LIVES" & "HALF HELMETS SAVES HEADS".  Come on, two motorcycles coming up to a stop together, staggered looks, just as wide as two side by side!
 
Axle to axle (ATA) stopped at the light is fine, you're STOPPED.  There is no logical reason to be ATA EVER, at anytime that I can think of, unless it is a parade or procession situation.  It's a "look at us, gang thing" that reeks of machismo, and "I know what I'm doing " attitude. In fact, in Idaho you can be ticketed for riding ATA! 
 
I don't care how careful you are or how well you know your fellow rider, you're taking an unnecessary risk.  Riding motorcycles is constant risk evaluating endeavor, that benefits greatly from recognizing and eliminating UNNECESSARY risk.
 
But hey, do what you want.shakehead Just don't ATA with ME pleaseskull   I'm not directing this rant @ harleys only by the way , it's just that I observe more Harley groups committing this common practice. All bikes should use the staggered formation, with a 2 second following distance in between the rider on your side of the lane.
 
I challenge anyone to prove that ATA is a viable way to ride on the open road and a necessary risk to take while riding ANYWHERE.nono  (whew, is it hot in here, or is it that flame war smoldering in the corner?) smilewinkgrin
 
 I guess I've busted out of my Lurker mode again.....ok back to the cave....:p


 

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vfrdriver
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   Posted 6/1/2007 5:43 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

For most people riding side by side is not a good idea. it takes practice, and skill, and dicipline. i used to ride with one buddy, but he was skilled on a hayabusa, and i used to be a fighter type who taught formation flying, so the skills carry over. the key aspect is to be able to concentrate on speed to drive in formation, and to look far enough ahead to have no 2 automatically slide behind to a fluid position.  A fluid position is where you match forward speed but can slide left to right and lead can move left and right without worrying about no 2.

Most folks would be maxed out just keeping line abreast. as far as newbies, they say in the back incase they go down. just have one rider shadow them and keep them in sight. that shadow will slow his or her speed so as not to overtask the newbie. it is all about the experience of riding, not showing off. A really good rider never shows off, just rides....for there will always be a newbie that tries to keep up with disasterous results.

thats my soapbox  

VegasVFR

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HogWild
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   Posted 6/1/2007 8:10 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
spectrerider said...
HogWild said...



Harley Davidson said...

I only ride with two other guys on occasion. We always ride staggered, but will bunch up at stop lights, sometimes.


If I'm in town with friends we always ride axle to axle but this is at a very slow speed and we do it to make ourselves more visible. These folks her don't see squat and they have a habit of rear ending bikes. Together it packs us up and gives that gager more to look at as opposed to seeing two objects moving at different distances off their front bumper. Once we get moving at any real speed we stagger off.
....that makes about as much sense as ''LOUD PIPES SAVES LIVES" & "HALF HELMETS SAVES HEADS". Come on, two motorcycles coming up to a stop together, staggered looks, just as wide as two side by side!


If you know what you are doing and are comfortable doing it riding axle to axle isn't a problem... Then again if you have never spent any time doing it I can see where it would be awkward... Riding staggered around these parts while in town is a bad idea and you won't see it done much.... Two bikes coming to a stop while staggered doesn't look as wide at all. What it looks like is two separate machines and one of those may just be the next crash victim around here. Welcome to the crash capitol of the world, Kentucky.......
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Smax
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   Posted 6/1/2007 9:21 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
What is this 'group-riding' you speak of??

I'm w/Smitty and louemc. I ride alone. My ride has a solo-seat, and I've found two, maybe three riders in my more than 40-riding years I'd trust to ride with, let alone very near. I'd consider riding near HogWild, louemc, Smitty or RedDog, though, considering their outlook and experience...

I see a group and think "one of 'em's goin' down, eventually, if not all".


Scoot-jockey. gsx-r 1100

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HogWild
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   Posted 6/2/2007 4:06 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Smax said...
What is this 'group-riding' you speak of??

I'm w/Smitty and louemc. I ride alone. My ride has a solo-seat, and I've found two, maybe three riders in my more than 40-riding years I'd trust to ride with, let alone very near. I'd consider riding near HogWild, louemc, Smitty or RedDog, though, considering their outlook and experience...

I see a group and think "one of 'em's goin' down, eventually, if not all".


Plus 1 Smaxster.... There are maybe 2 or 3 times a year that I do go on group rides for charity. Each year I am riding with the same guys around me and we always seem to find ourselves way back at the rear of this mess. Beyond that I typically ride solo or with my neighbor on occasion and this is where it's at for me.... I went out on the slab last week for the first time in six months and it sucked.... Came all the way home (120 miles) on good old backroads. Riding solo is good for the soul because it's all about you and your ride. Come on down Smaxster, we can go chasing Kentucky backroads and leave the mess to the rest in the city.......
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Mike In SATX
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   Posted 8/23/2009 7:01 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I always ride in staggered formation, even with other experienced riders. Not that I don't trust my abilities or theirs, but you never know what's just up ahead. It might be a pothole, or an 18-wheeler moving at high speed (remember the wind those cause when they pass you?), or any of a hundred other problems. If you're riding side-by-side, you're asking for trouble. I'd only ride side-by-side in VERY low-speed situations, like parades. Remember, time and distance are your FRIENDS!!!

And (of course), I ALWAYS wear my helmet, jacket, gloves, and riding boots when I ride. I see too many people riding (mostly) sport bikes in tanktops, shorts, and flip-flops. But, they (usually) have their helmets on...<G> That's just asking for trouble. A nail or screw will go through a flip-flop like a hot knife thorough butter.

My wife just got her class M endorsement, so we trailered our bikes up to Oklahoma City from San Antonio. We went riding with her Dad, who happily took us a couple hundred miles. And we rode in staggered formation the whole way, only pulling up side-by-side at stop signs/stoplights.

Y'all keep the shiny side up, and keep two wheels on the ground...
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RedDog
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   Posted 8/24/2009 8:24 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Side-By-Side is maximized posing and ditto what Mike said:

"If you're riding side-by-side, you're asking for trouble!" I need my space and I stop and tell someone when I don't get my space.


RedDog
Think Ahead! Travel Light & Leave Your Fears Behind You!
Normal People Scare me! Travel Light and Leave Your Fears Behind You!

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LeatherNXG
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   Posted 8/28/2010 1:48 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Well, its the safety that matters most for me, not only mine, but safety of others fellow riders also, so better to avoid side by side riding.
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Fish.
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   Posted 3/23/2011 7:25 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
During my first week of riding (last week) my buddy with several years of riding decided to move up from the staggered position to right next to my right side. Seeing as how I only had about 4 days of riding experience at that time it made me nervous as hell. I was plenty busy concentrating on the road and conditions up ahead. His being right next to me forced me to take part of my focus of what it needed to be on. I made sure to tell him not to do that again. I love riding on my own, but have enjoyed riding with others too. I have no interest in anyone being right beside me.

During my 10 years of driving cars I always followed a 1 second following distance per 10 mph of speed that I was taught. Upwards of 60mph to 100mph I would keep it at 6 seconds. At 100 mph and over I would not be following anyone. That 1 second per 10mph of speed always guaranteed that I had plenty of room to perceive, react, and act.

It's still odd to me when riding my bike to have waay less following distance than I do in my car. And not feeling a seat belt around my chest, lol.


"When the people lead, the leaders will follow." - Gandhi

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el SID
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   Posted 3/24/2011 5:39 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
 Maybe because of growing up in dirt bikes riding single tracks,I never ride side by side. It just never has felt right,I'm the, "Hey,back off its my lane"   kinda guy. I need the room to manoeuvre the bike in case of a idiot driver emergency. Fellas I ride with share the same mantra as well.
 
 I have been known to coast up on a stoplight, with no one else there but us,and flip the kill switch on my buddies bike,just as the light turns green though. Its good fun early on Sunday morning when nobodys up,makes sure everyones one their respective toes before the cagers,get out on the roads. I get caught out once and a while with them doing it to me. Again NEVER in a area when traffics around. Say 5a.m.,and you are the only 3 vehicles waiting on a stoplight that really should be blinking. You get fixated on looking up at the stupid light and get lazy not checking your mirrors,next thing you know your bikes not running and your buddies riding by shaking his head. It wakes you up. Gives you a good feeling when you try it,and you see the hand come up and give you the nono . Then,you know,everyones alert,and ready. 



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Post Edited (el SID) : 3/24/2011 1:58:18 PM GMT

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Easy Rider 2
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   Posted 3/24/2011 8:03 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Fish. said...
It's still odd to me when riding my bike to have waay less following distance than I do in my car.
Not only is it odd, it isn't right either.
 
The "rules" are the same and the physics aren't any different either........but if you do hit the guy ahead, it hurts a LOT more.
 
If anything your space cushion should be MORE on a bike, not less.
It's something that I have to constantly work on too.


 
 

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Andy VH
Where is the earth shattering kaboom!?



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   Posted 3/24/2011 4:00 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hogwild, I understand your comment, "If you know what you are doing and are comfortable doing it riding axle to axle isn't a problem... Then again if you have never spent any time doing it I can see where it would be awkward... Riding staggered around these parts while in town is a bad idea and you won't see it done much.... Two bikes coming to a stop while staggered doesn't look as wide at all. What it looks like is two separate machines and one of those may just be the next crash victim around here. Welcome to the crash capitol of the world, Kentucky......."

But really, the point is, when riding side by side, it really limits each rider's options, and now each rider is dependent on the other to not screw anything up. Best to avoid it all the time. I will never depend on another rider, by my side, to do everything right in every riding condition, enough that I can depend on that rider not impacting my riding, or my riding impacting their riding. Its just not worth it and asking for trouble.

Yet, here in Wisconsin I see it a LOT!


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Get MSF trained, check out: http://www.msf-usa.org
 

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Fish.
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   Posted 3/25/2011 3:10 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Easy Rider 2 said...
Fish. said...

It's still odd to me when riding my bike to have waay less following distance than I do in my car.
Not only is it odd, it isn't right either.


The "rules" are the same and the physics aren't any different either........but if you do hit the guy ahead, it hurts a LOT more.



If anything your space cushion should be MORE on a bike, not less.

It's something that I have to constantly work on too.



When following a car on my bike I do use the same cushion I always did in my car, but I do suppose making it bigger would be something I could work on.

It's just that on my first group ride in a staggered formation everybody was a lot closer to one another than we would be in cars.
It was our first ride together, maybe that's got something to do with it.


"When the people lead, the leaders will follow." - Gandhi

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Andy VH
Where is the earth shattering kaboom!?



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   Posted 9/28/2011 11:36 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
In group riding, the staggered format allows for the rider directly behind the rider in front, to be about 2-seconds back, with the rider in the RH lane third ahead, to be about 1-second ahead. This allows for group riding in reasonable spacing without infringing on each other's riding options should something become an issue.

Quite often I see groups of bikes here in Wisconsin, riding side by side, with the following pair less than 1-second behind the leading pair. WAY too tight a formation. It may work for the highly trained cycle cops, but not for the general public. Consider other riders you know, and what you know of their riding ability. Would you want them riding that close to you? Limiting your riding options? Maybe creating a problem for YOU because of their inept riding ability?


Training, the best safety and performance "equipment" you can get!
Get MSF trained, check out: http://www.msf-usa.org
 

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Well Enuff
--- Regaining my sanity --- one ride at time



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   Posted 11/11/2011 1:22 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Andy VH said...

Quite often I see groups of bikes here in Wisconsin, riding side by side, with the following pair less than 1-second behind the leading pair. WAY too tight a formation.
Boy, I sure have noticed that, too. I don't do group riding myself, but a question comes to mind. Suppose a rider in the middle of a group of a dozen or more decides that the ride protocol just was not safe enuff for him. What is the proper way to exit the group assuming he can't bear to wait till the next stop?
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Andy VH
Where is the earth shattering kaboom!?



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   Posted 11/11/2011 7:46 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Especially if that rider in on the "outside" of the pattern.

The bigger issue is, when riding side by side, every rider HAS to depend on the other riders, and every move made by every group of four riders impacts at least three other riders. That simply is NOT a good way to ride. Riding side by side, say one rider looses concentration just for a few seconds, and wanders to the left into the rider on his/her left? Riding side by side means those two bikes already are wider than most over-width vehicles (the kind with the banners and lights). Now as the rider wanders he/she forces the other rider to move/react. Within a few seconds someone may have to panic react to actions caused by their fellow rider.

We all have SO much to take account for in our riding when out there solo. Why makes it worse when riding in the group by riding side by side? Just the action of riding in a group requires an even more heightened sense of riding.

Really, I see the riding side by side issue as more one of "power in traffic" than anything else. The action of riding side by side takes up more road than staggered formation, as if to say "we are TAKING this road, so give us room!" I think it was popularized by all the scenes we see of the biker gangs, like Hells Angels, DC Eagles, whoever. They ride side by side in part because of the image it projects to all other road users, one of power and control.


Training, the best safety and performance "equipment" you can get!
Get MSF trained, check out: http://www.msf-usa.org
 

Post Edited (Andy VH) : 11/18/2011 12:08:29 AM GMT

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stenejohn
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   Posted 11/17/2011 10:06 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Doing Good Job ...Andy
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