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DataDan
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   Posted 9/8/2010 10:37 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

The misconception of pressing down must be overcome to be able to apply steering inputs efficiently. If a sportbike rider is pressing down, he won't be able to steer the bike as quickly as might be necessary to get into a turn or to avoid a hazard. It's not a theoretical consideration; it's potentially about survival.

In his new Twist II video, Keith Code includes an animation of steering input from side view, showing how a rider sitting upright on a sportbike and pressing down wastes most of the effort he puts into steering, and how, by getting his elbows down and forearms horizontal, most of the force he applies to the bar goes into actually steering the bike.

IMHO, riders need to learn on a bike with bars high enough to be able to make an effective steering input from an upright seating position. Moreover, I think they need to practice far more than an MSF class allows, and they need to practice at higher speeds, too. Through repetition, they'll learn how quickly a motorcycle can change direction, and how efficiently they can make it happen with arm input alone--no contortions, no body english, no "peg weighting". Once the light bulb goes on, a rider will be able to steer effectively, whether with ape hangers or clip-ons.


A superior rider uses superior judgment to avoid problems that would demand his superior skill.

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GAJ
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   Posted 9/8/2010 11:18 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
DataDan said...
The misconception of pressing down must be overcome to be able to apply steering inputs efficiently. If a sportbike rider is pressing down, he won't be able to steer the bike as quickly as might be necessary to get into a turn or to avoid a hazard. It's not a theoretical consideration; it's potentially about survival.

In his new Twist II video, Keith Code includes an animation of steering input from side view, showing how a rider sitting upright on a sportbike and pressing down wastes most of the effort he puts into steering, and how, by getting his elbows down and forearms horizontal, most of the force he applies to the bar goes into actually steering the bike.

IMHO, riders need to learn on a bike with bars high enough to be able to make an effective steering input from an upright seating position. Moreover, I think they need to practice far more than an MSF class allows, and they need to practice at higher speeds, too. Through repetition, they'll learn how quickly a motorcycle can change direction, and how efficiently they can make it happen with arm input alone--no contortions, no body english, no "peg weighting". Once the light bulb goes on, a rider will be able to steer effectively, whether with ape hangers or clip-ons.


Yeah, Keith often refers to it as pressing forward with the inside bar and/or pulling backward with the outside bar...just to confuse matters! lol

At slower speeds I merely push left to go left but at higher speeds I also mildly pull on the right bar as it feels "correct" for me at speed.
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Andy VH
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   Posted 9/8/2010 11:24 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I could not agree more. The effect of having a higher handlebar (like most standards) is one of the main reason I cannot advocate any sportbike (2500cc up to 1000cc) as appropriate on which to learn and develop basic riding skills. When you have well known riding experts like Kieth Code, David Hough, Lee Parks, Jason Pridmore, etc, etc, etc all saying much the same thing it stands to reason as being very valid.

I recall Keith Code's article about proper riding position on a sport-bike actually being in the race/tuck position because that is where the forearms, wrists and hands are positioned in the right way to affect accurate countersteering control. But, watch almost ANY sport-bike style cycle ridden on the streets and highways and the rider is almost always sitting as upright as possible in order to get the head and eyes up, and to support the upper body. What riders in general don't realize is that sport-bike racers, pro and many amateurs, have the abdomen and back muscles developed and conditioned such that they can support their upper body in a racing crouch so the loads on their arms and wrists are minimized for good control. Not so with almost all sport-bikes ridden on the street.

For newbies and inexperienced riders on sport-bikes, so much load is placed on their wrists and hands that learning good control skills is much more difficult, and uncomfortable. I recently did a 100 mile ride on a BMW S1000RR and certainly felt it because much of the time I was trying to sit upright, and still not load my wrists and hands too much. Not easy at all. But when I tucked down into the bike, actually laying my belly against the back of the tank, then the controls were much easier to operate with fine accuracy. But, I also have 38+ years of riding background. Also, many riders claim FF helmets limit visual ability. Well, on a sport-bike, because of the forward lean/head down attitude, it is much more difficult to look back over your shoulder when manuvering in traffic. Yet another reason why sport-bikes are not good learner bikes.  

I STILL maintain that a standard/upright style bike is the best setup to learn riding, period. I really don't care for comments like "go ahead a get a sport-bike and just ride safely and you'll do fine", or "sure you can learn to ride on a sport-bike if you just take it easy". Perhaps, you "may" learn to ride that way on a sport-bike, but you will NOT learn to ride well, or correctly. That first bike, is THE MOST CRITICAL bike you'll ride in your riding career, and no sport-bike is the place to start that riding background to learn from and grow into an experienced rider.


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Post Edited (Andy VH) : 9/8/2010 6:28:53 PM GMT

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GAJ
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   Posted 9/8/2010 11:56 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Andy VH said...
I could not agree more. The effect of having a higher handlebar (like most standards) is one of the main reason I cannot advocate any sportbike (2500cc up to 1000cc) as appropriate on which to learn and develop basic riding skills. When you have well known riding experts like Kieth Code, David Hough, Lee Parks, Jason Pridmore, etc, etc, etc all saying much the same thing it stands to reason as being very valid.

I recall Keith Code's article about proper riding position on a sport-bike actually being in the race/tuck position because that is where the forearms, wrists and hands are positioned in the right way to affect accurate countersteering control. But, watch almost ANY sport-bike style cycle ridden on the streets and highways and the rider is almost always sitting as upright as possible in order to get the head and eyes up, and to support the upper body. What riders in general don't realize is that sport-bike racers, pro and many amateurs, have the abdomen and back muscles developed and conditioned such that they can support their upper body in a racing crouch so the loads on their arms and wrists are minimized for good control. Not so with almost all sport-bikes ridden on the street.

For newbies and inexperienced riders on sport-bikes, so much load is placed on their wrists and hands that learning good control skills is much more difficult, and uncomfortable. I recently did a 100 mile ride on a BMW S1000RR and certainly felt it because much of the time I was trying to sit upright, and still not load my wrists and hands too much. Not easy at all. But when I tucked down into the bike, actually laying my belly against the back of the tank, then the controls were much easier to operate with fine accuracy. But, I also have 38+ years of riding background. Also, many riders claim FF helmets limit visual ability. Well, on a sport-bike, because of the forward lean/head down attitude, it is much more difficult to look back over your shoulder when manuvering in traffic. Yet another reason why sport-bikes are not good learner bikes.

I STILL maintain that a standard/upright style bike is the best setup to learn riding, period. I really don't care for comments like "go ahead a get a sport-bike and just ride safely and you'll do fine", or "sure you can learn to ride on a sport-bike if you just take it easy". Perhaps, you "may" learn to ride that way on a sport-bike, but you will NOT learn to ride well, or correctly. That first bike, is THE MOST CRITICAL bike you'll ride in your riding career, and no sport-bike is the place to start that riding background to learn from and grow into an experienced rider.


Which is why on my old sport bike I ditched the clipons for Convertibars...on the advice of Lou no less...major improvement.
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louemc
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   Posted 9/8/2010 12:02 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Andy VH said...
I could not agree more. The effect of having a higher handlebar (like most standards) is one of the main reason I cannot advocate any sportbike (2500cc up to 1000cc) as appropriate on which to learn and develop basic riding skills. When you have well known riding experts like Kieth Code, David Hough, Lee Parks, Jason Pridmore, etc, etc, etc all saying much the same thing it stands to reason as being very valid.

I recall Keith Code's article about proper riding position on a sport-bike actually being in the race/tuck position because that is where the forearms, wrists and hands are positioned in the right way to affect accurate countersteering control. But, watch almost ANY sport-bike style cycle ridden on the streets and highways and the rider is almost always sitting as upright as possible in order to get the head and eyes up, and to support the upper body. What riders in general don't realize is that sport-bike racers, pro and many amateurs, have the abdomen and back muscles developed and conditioned such that they can support their upper body in a racing crouch so the loads on their arms and wrists are minimized for good control. Not so with almost all sport-bikes ridden on the street.

For newbies and inexperienced riders on sport-bikes, so much load is placed on their wrists and hands that learning good control skills is much more difficult, and uncomfortable. I recently did a 100 mile ride on a BMW S1000RR and certainly felt it because much of the time I was trying to sit upright, and still not load my wrists and hands too much. Not easy at all. But when I tucked down into the bike, actually laying my belly against the back of the tank, then the controls were much easier to operate with fine accuracy. But, I also have 38+ years of riding background. Also, many riders claim FF helmets limit visual ability. Well, on a sport-bike, because of the forward lean/head down attitude, it is much more difficult to look back over your shoulder when manuvering in traffic. Yet another reason why sport-bikes are not good learner bikes.  

I STILL maintain that a standard/upright style bike is the best setup to learn riding, period. I really don't care for comments like "go ahead a get a sport-bike and just ride safely and you'll do fine", or "sure you can learn to ride on a sport-bike if you just take it easy". Perhaps, you "may" learn to ride that way on a sport-bike, but you will NOT learn to ride well, or correctly. That first bike, is THE MOST CRITICAL bike you'll ride in your riding career, and no sport-bike is the place to start that riding background to learn from and grow into an experienced rider.

 
Yes..true and right on..And a very experienced guy named Lou (I think he is a member here, under the user name louemc...but he hasn't writen a book..so...he has no credibility lol ) rants about it all the time, and the simple cure for Sportbikes is even in kit form (Spiegler sells LSL bar kits) for the street fighter conversion that can be used, with as much or as little body plastic left on as a rider chooses.
 
Thing is...this is NOT for only newbies and inexperienced riders..it is for street riders, dealing with the public road that has difficulties that prepaired for racing, closed course tracks DON'T  have.
 
Closed course tracks don't have railroad tracks crossing them, don't have deteriated broken up pavement and pot holes and road construction and on-coming traffic and U-turns and gravel or oil, without a track worker tending to it. (don't even get me started on the blanket of s**t that a cattle drive will put down..anyone see a cattle drive on a closed course race track? I didn't think so.
 
Also...Sport Rider Magazine did a street fighter-ized R1..and wrote up what the difference in the bike was, handling wise...in the canyon they gave it the work out in.
 
Those guys are not newbies or inexperienced...They were amazed in the improvement...that is an immprovement for any street rider (someone who rides on the street).
 
I hope to see a time when American bikers get this (Europeans have).


 Focus the forces, Be The Force

Post Edited (louemc) : 9/8/2010 8:07:40 PM GMT

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astrobufff
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   Posted 9/25/2010 9:36 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
If you want the science on countersteering and what a bike actually does when you countersteer you need to read up a book called "Proficient Motorcycling - The Ultimate Guide to Riding Well" by David L. Hough published by Motrocycle Consumer News. It will answer more queries about everything that you would care to ask.
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Andy VH
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   Posted 9/26/2010 10:41 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Right on that, I have read David Hough's books and many of his articles in various magazines. I met David Hough at a dinner some years back and enjoyed the opportunity to learn a bit more from a man very capable at describing complex physics as it applies to our riding. Great books that all riders should at least get a look at or own the books as part of their learning library.


Training, the best safety and performance "equipment" you can get!
Get MSF trained, check out: http://www.msf-usa.org
 

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lawrence1
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   Posted 9/29/2010 12:09 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The only time I ever even maybe think about countersteering is if I've got in to a corner too hot and have to apply a forcefull push on the bar. I can see where this can all be confusing for a beginer, they're trying to overthink it as it is a complicated subject. Those of was that went from bicycles to dirt bikes I guess it all just comes natural. Steering is mostly leaning the bike though, I can ride with no hands through all but the sharpest curves.

The important thing for beginers to remember is if you're starting to run out of road in a turn, more lean and a good smooth push on the bar can save your ass.


Pigs of Life MC

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DataDan
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   Posted 9/29/2010 4:28 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

lawrence1 wrote:

Steering is mostly leaning the bike though, I can ride with no hands through all but the sharpest curves.

I don't believe it. I'm sure you can go through some curves that way, if they're gentle and well-banked (banking itself causes the motorcycle to lean). But if you're changing direction in a hurry, you're countersteering whether you realize it or not.

I've tried, on a bike equipped with a throttle lock, to put my hands on the tank and swerve from one lane to the next. The best I can do is to nudge the bike gradually into the next lane. It wouldn't be the least bit effective if I was trying to avoid something.

Keith Code has demonstrated the necessity of countersteering with his "no BS" bike, which shows how futile body steering (BS) is. It has an extra handlebar, with duplicate controls, fixed to the frame rather than attached to the forks. So the rider is stable on the bike and has throttle, clutch, and brake, but he's unable to steer the front wheel. The best anyone can do is to kind of weave at low speed.

Nick Ienatsch in his book Sport Riding Techniques explains how easy it is to make steering inputs you're not aware of when your hands are on the bars. Only by actually taking your hands off the bars can you experience the non-effect of shifting body weight.

Without a doubt, many experienced riders can steer a motorcycle very effectively without consciously countersteering. One MotoGP rider I heard interviewed didn't know the term. Another, when asked how he steers the bike, said, "I don't know. It just happens." They learned how to steer by trial and error, and it just works. But they're countersteering even if they don't know it. For them, trying to think in a counterintuitive way about something they do very well naturally cannot be a good thing.

But for an inexperienced rider who wants to bypass the trial-and-error phase and develop highly effective steering skill as quickly as possible, the only way to do it is to consciously countersteer in every turn. Press left, go left. Press right, go right. Letting them think there's some other way to steer the bike does a disservice because it hinders development of the steering technique they need.

 

Andy, here's a suggestion for you, or somebody with the resources: a video that demonstrates a truly violent steering input. It would be the kind of maneuver you'd be forced to make in a emergency swerve from one lane to the next. At a non-trivial speed (maybe 40mph), keep repeating the lane change, trying to do it in the shortest distance possible. Then post video of the best performance, along with the distance achieved. Let that be the standard by which those who doubt countersteering can measure their own, hands-free performance.


A superior rider uses superior judgment to avoid problems that would demand his superior skill.

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GAJ
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   Posted 9/29/2010 5:48 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
lawrence1 said...
The only time I ever even maybe think about countersteering is if I've got in to a corner too hot and have to apply a forcefull push on the bar. I can see where this can all be confusing for a beginer, they're trying to overthink it as it is a complicated subject. Those of was that went from bicycles to dirt bikes I guess it all just comes natural. Steering is mostly leaning the bike though, I can ride with no hands through all but the sharpest curves.

The important thing for beginers to remember is if you're starting to run out of road in a turn, more lean and a good smooth push on the bar can save your ass.


I'm completely with DataDan on this one.

Lawrence describes a technique that can only result in disaster.

Countersteering is the only way to steer a bike; any other steering inputs are subtle at best.

In fact, when I'm riding quickly I not only push the inside bar to turn in that direction, (push the inside bar right to go right and vice versa), but I pull on the outside bar as well for even more decisive input.

Leaning?

Well, I load the inside peg with my body weight at times, but that only offers subtle effects.
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Easy Rider 2
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   Posted 9/29/2010 6:47 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
DataDan said...

lawrence1 wrote:

Steering is mostly leaning the bike though, I can ride with no hands through all but the sharpest curves.

I don't believe it. I'm sure you can go through some curves that way, if they're gentle and well-banked (banking itself causes the motorcycle to lean). But if you're changing direction in a hurry, you're countersteering whether you realize it or not.

I've tried, on a bike equipped with a throttle lock, to put my hands on the tank and swerve from one lane to the next. The best I can do is to nudge the bike gradually into the next lane. It wouldn't be the least bit effective if I was trying to avoid something.

Oh just STOP it already.
 
Nobody said anything about SWERVING.
I ride no hands ALL the time for many miles and through all kinds of curves.
Stunt riders make their bikes do more than "swerve" and never touch the bars.
 
By definition, you have to have some body part in contact with the bars or front suspension to do "countersteering".
 
Thus, the misguided contention that you can't make a bike turn without countersteering is just plain BUNK.
 
You don't have to "believe" it for it to be true.
 
The so-called Kieth Code demonstration is a farce.  Nobody ever claimed that one could do all their normal riding without holding the bars and countersteering.  If the demo. would have had a rider experienced at "body steering" the outcome would have been remarkably different.  The simple fact that an unskilled rider DID make it weave from lane to lane should prove the point .........to anybody who didn't have their mind made up already.
 
Can you do all your normal riding without countersteering ?  No, of course not; that's absurd.
 
Can you ride your bike through gentle curves and make it turn without countersteering ?
Yes, absolutely.  To claim otherwise is simple stupidity.
 
Want to do a real serioius test that shows the bike can't turn without LEANING ??....which is true, incidentally because of the gyroscopic forces present.  Get your bike above 10 MPH and try turning it without it leaning.
THAT is impossible.
 
You cannot turn a bike without leaning it.  You CAN turn it without countersteering. 
Those are two different things.
 
 


 
 

Post Edited (Easy Rider 2) : 9/30/2010 1:53:54 AM GMT

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GeoffG
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   Posted 9/29/2010 8:19 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Easy Rider 2 said...

Can you ride your bike through gentle curves and make it turn without countersteering ?

Yes, absolutely. To claim otherwise is simple stupidity.
...

You cannot turn a bike without leaning it. You CAN turn it without countersteering.

Those are two different things.

Yes, you can make your bike lean into gentle curves, especially at low speeds, simply by leaning; I've done it myself. But it is an imprecise and inefficient method, capable of only mild lean angles. For negotiating anything more than gentle curves at medium speeds, you'll be countersteering or you'll be in the weeds.
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lawrence1
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   Posted 9/29/2010 9:22 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yes it's actually both. I didn't mean to mislead anyone. When I said steering is mostly leaning I meant it's at least 51% leaning and 49% countersteering. Like ER said I'd like to see a video of steering without leaning. I'd hate to have to ride around like GAJ Push left/pull right Push right/pull left, we all know it happens naturally anyway, just ride the thing. For those in the know about it, it's just another thing in your bag of tricks that can save your ass.


Pigs of Life MC

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GeoffG
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   Posted 9/30/2010 6:40 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
lawrence1 said...
When I said steering is mostly leaning I meant it's at least 51% leaning and 49% countersteering.

Bunch of stuff here. First off, yes what makes the bike turn is the lean, 100%. But countersteering is the best way to initiate the lean. If you just try to lean the bike over with body weight, first of all, you've got nothing to push against but the bike itself. The bike is heavier than you are, but not by a whole lot, and all you've got to push it with is your own body mass (and not all of that).

Also, and more importantly, if you're just trying to lean the bike, you're trying to move the whole mass of the bike and yourself to one side; the wheels stay planted. A motorcycle turns most efficiently when it rolls on its axis, like a fighter jet--the top of the bike and rider move to one side, and the wheels move to the other side. This is actually what countersteering does--it moves the wheels to one side, almost as if the bike was sitting on a carpet and someone pulled the carpet hard to one side, causing the bike to fall to the opposite side, and turn in that direction (this is why countersteering involves steering to the outside of the turn).

It may sound complex, but it's actually very simple. And really, no-one has to understand the physics to use it...just learn to push forward on the side you want to turn towards. Many riders do this without knowing they're doing it, but at least knowing to push makes riding easier IMO.

Post Edited (GeoffG) : 9/30/2010 1:44:25 PM GMT

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Easy Rider 2
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   Posted 9/30/2010 7:13 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
GeoffG said...
Yes, you can make your bike lean into gentle curves, especially at low speeds, simply by leaning; I've done it myself. But it is an imprecise and inefficient method, capable of only mild lean angles. For negotiating anything more than gentle curves at medium speeds, you'll be countersteering or you'll be in the weeds.
And nobody that I have seen ever claimed anything different, for the "average" rider.  Although a really skilled rider with lots of practice CAN make the bike go almost anywhere he wants and never touch the bars and by definition, without any countersteering.
 
It is not impossible; just very unlikely.
 
 


 
 

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Easy Rider 2
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   Posted 9/30/2010 7:29 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
GeoffG said...
 
Bunch of stuff here. First off, yes what makes the bike turn is the lean, 100%. But countersteering is the best way to initiate the lean.
 
This is actually what countersteering does--it moves the wheels to one side, almost as if the bike was sitting on a carpet and someone pulled the carpet hard to one side, causing the bike to fall to the opposite side, and turn in that direction (this is why countersteering involves steering to the outside of the turn).
NOBODY ever said that it wasn't the best way to do it.  The arguement is with those who say it is the ONLY way to do it.
 
And your explanation of how countersteering works is just .......well......"a bunch of stuff"; sorry but it IS.  ;-)
 
To really understand the process, you need to understand the rotational force vectors involved with a gyroscope.......which is what the front wheel IS at speed.  Applying a force against the front axle with the bars causes the wheel (and the bike that's attached) NOT to turn in the direction of the applied force but to LEAN instead.  That LEAN causes the wheel to turn in a direction opposite to the original applied force.
 
Then there is leaning without bar input.  It has nothing to do with pushing against parts of the bike......except that is the easiest way to describe what is happening.  Again, it has to do with the gyroscopic action of the front wheel and what happens when the center of mass (weight) shifts to one side or the other.  Just like with countersteering, a weight shift causes a lean which, in turn, causes the front wheel to actually turn.
 
In both cases, the wheel turning is a direct result of the LEAN.  Weight shift and countersteering are just two different ways to initiate the lean.  As a practical matter, for most riders, countersteering is much more effective, has a wider range of action and is easier to modulate accurately.  That does NOT mean, however, that one can not turn without it.
 
Turning without countersteering absolutely IS possible.
 
 
 
 
 


 
 

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GeoffG
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   Posted 9/30/2010 5:05 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Easy Rider 2 said...

And your explanation of how countersteering works is just .......well......"a bunch of stuff"; sorry but it IS. ;-)



To really understand the process, you need to understand the rotational force vectors involved with a gyroscope.......which is what the front wheel IS at speed. Applying a force against the front axle with the bars causes the wheel (and the bike that's attached) NOT to turn in the direction of the applied force but to LEAN instead. That LEAN causes the wheel to turn in a direction opposite to the original applied force.

I beg to differ. I understand well enough how gyroscopic force vectors work (rule of thumb, force to the edge of a spinning mass is translated 90o in the direction of rotation), and that's what I was originally taught about countersteering. But on thinking about it, I believe that the forces I describe above are prevalent, especially at low to medium speeds...you can see it happen, if you watch your front wheel path as you describe a series of S-turns down the road.

You mention the lean causing the front wheel to turn. That's true, but I believe it has little to do with gyroscopic force (especially in your scenario--how can a lean, caused by force on the wheel in one direction, cause the wheel to turn in the opposite direction?). The front wheel turns into the direction of the lean because front end geometry--rake and trail--make it do so as the bike leans over.

In any case, this discussion of the physics doesn't really matter (although it's kinda fun)--countersteering works, and more importantly, it works far, far more effectively than trying to lean the bike with "body English." I believe every rider should learn at least the how of countersteering, as it makes riding just so much easier and more fun...
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PowerG
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   Posted 9/30/2010 5:14 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Mmm hmm. ER2, if what you say is correct, then the bike would actually lean from the ground up, and the tire would stay on the exact same line. But that's not what happens, the bike actually rotates on an axis running longtitudinally through the bike, well above the ground; next time you're following someone on a bike watch, the effect is very noticable. As Geoff is explaining, the counter-steer causes the front tire to steer out from under the bike, causing the bike to lean.

Lawrence, I can make the bike turn as much as I like (even up to the point of low-siding) and keep my body perfectly upright...the countersteer is what causes the bike to lean, irregardless of what your body is doing.


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Easy Rider 2
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   Posted 9/30/2010 5:57 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
GeoffG said...
I beg to differ. I understand well enough how gyroscopic force vectors work 

You mention the lean causing the front wheel to turn. That's true, but I believe it has little to do with gyroscopic force
 
In any case, this discussion of the physics doesn't really matter
No you don't, not really and you go on to prove that.
 
You should have quit while you were only a LITTLE behind.  smilewinkgrin
 
It has everything to do with gyroscopic forces and you can't begin to understand it without first understanding the underlying principles of physics.
 
So......one can't, in any practical sense, actually ride a bike in a useful fashion without countersteering.
One CAN, however, ride under limited circumstances without countersteering and you absolutely can turn without it.  How sharp the turns are depends on your skill level.
 
I quit.
 
 


 
 

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Easy Rider 2
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   Posted 9/30/2010 6:09 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
PowerG said...
Mmm hmm. ER2, if what you say is correct, then the bike would actually lean from the ground up, and the tire would stay on the exact same line.
I never said that; never even implied it.
Don't go putting words into my mouth......or onto my page, as it were.
 
Now that you mentioned it though, what you describe is a sign of poor technique.
Done properly, a bike will NOT go off line more than a fraction of an inch.
 
Most of what you are "seeing" is riders anticipating a turn and swinging wide to start the turn.
It may not be a conscious move but it IS rider initiated and is NOT a result of the bike rotating around some imaginary axis.
 
If that were true, it would make taking sudden evasive action REALLY difficult......because the tires would end up going the opposite direction from what you wanted them to.
 
 


 
 

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PowerG
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   Posted 9/30/2010 6:33 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Easy Rider 2 said...
PowerG said...
Mmm hmm. ER2, if what you say is correct, then the bike would actually lean from the ground up, and the tire would stay on the exact same line.
I never said that; never even implied it.
Don't go putting words into my mouth......or onto my page, as it were.
 
Now that you mentioned it though, what you describe is a sign of poor technique.
Done properly, a bike will NOT go off line more than a fraction of an inch.
 
Most of what you are "seeing" is riders anticipating a turn and swinging wide to start the turn.
It may not be a conscious move but it IS rider initiated and is NOT a result of the bike rotating around some imaginary axis.
 
If that were true, it would make taking sudden evasive action REALLY difficult......because the tires would end up going the opposite direction from what you wanted them to.
 
 

LOL You say you never said it, then proceed to say it again. You have a poor understanding of the concept of counter-steering. That's fine, if your method works for you, then carry on.


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Andy VH
Where is the earth shattering kaboom!?



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   Posted 9/30/2010 10:43 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
My main resaon to starting this post, is because it seems online info is quite often well intentioned, but also quite often mis-worded, misinformed, or just plain wrong by the description given.

In this case, Lawrence says, "Yes it's actually both. I didn't mean to mislead anyone. When I said steering is mostly leaning I meant it's at least 51% leaning and 49% countersteering. Like ER said I'd like to see a video of steering without leaning. I'd hate to have to ride around like GAJ Push left/pull right Push right/pull left, we all know it happens naturally anyway, just ride the thing. For those in the know about it, it's just another thing in your bag of tricks that can save your ass."

I have to respond. A motorcycle going through a turn, is more like 95% plus leaning, INITITIATED and CONTROLLED nearly 100% by some form of countersteering. I say that, because the action of leaning a bike CAN be done by countersteering, body lean, footpeg pressure, knee pressure into the side of the fuel tank or frame. BUT!! The easiest and MOST effective way is simply countersteering by varying palm pressure at the grips. Flat out, nothing else. And the comment above, "Push left/pull right Push right/pull left, we all know it happens naturally anyway." Wrong, it is only natural as far as how the bike does it, but it is NOT natural or intuitive to the untrained or unknowing rider. If it was, we'd have well over 40% fewer single vehicle bike crashes. It is NOT natural in that sense, and has to be learned and practiced to be effective.

Here is another response, where I know what is being said, but is described out of context which simply confuses people, "Is rider inititated and NOT a result of the bike rotating around some imaginary axis." That is taken out of context, because the reference of riders turning wide (left to go right as viewed from above) is simply poor bike control. The imaginary axis used in this description is taken as the center of the turn radius, a vertical point which could be far from the bike. ALL motorcycles and bicycles for that matter DO LEAN (not turn) through an imaginary axis of rotation, is simply the physics. But, that axis is parallel to the ground, going front to back through the motorcycle, approximately at a height about the vertical midpoint of the crankcase. Motorcycles do NOT lean (viewed as an angle at the intersection of the tire contact patch through the vertiacl centerline of the bike) at the tires, the bike and rider DO rotate around the horizontal imaginary axis. If we didn't, the balancing forces of physics would not make sense and we'd all fall down.

Take it to any good college physics teacher and he/she should be able to explain it. If they can't, well not much of a physics teacher in my book, and I barely got through HS physics. Of course, raging hormones may have caused that too.


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lawrence1
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   Posted 10/1/2010 6:11 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
andy said...
( A motorcycle going through a turn, is more like 95% plus leaning, INITITIATED and CONTROLLED nearly 100% by some form of countersteering. I say that, because the action of leaning a bike CAN be done by countersteering, body lean, footpeg pressure, knee pressure into the side of the fuel tank or frame. BUT!! The easiest and MOST effective way is simply countersteering by varying palm pressure at the grips)
95% you say. Thats why I said "at least". So would you agree with my earlier statement that steering is mostly leaning then? Not sure what you mean by initiate by countersteering, leaning is how I initiate a turn, a slight dip of the shoulder. Your statement does not jive with the fact that I can ride through some turns with no hands. Where's the countersteering? Is it natural? Not trying to discount the importance of countersteering at all, just questions.
 
Here's a question for you engineer types. When I'm riding through a turn with no hands, what does my front wheel do, does it stay straight or does it countersteer on it's own in an effort to right itself, even if it's just the smallest of increments, or does it move in the opposite direction? I've tried to watch my bars but can see no change. Thanks.
 
 
PowerG said...
(Lawrence, I can make the bike turn as much as I like (even up to the point of low-siding) and keep my body perfectly upright...the countersteer is what causes the bike to lean, irregardless of what your body is doing )
 
So? I can hang-off the side opposite of the turn. Whats your point? I steer the bike through the turn, not my body.


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Easy Rider 2
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   Posted 10/1/2010 6:43 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
lawrence1 said...
Here's a question for you engineer types. When I'm riding through a turn with no hands, what does my front wheel do, does it stay straight or does it countersteer on it's own
THAT IS THE PROBLEM with this whole discussion......or at least what started it.  rolleyes
 
Countersteering, by definition, is a rider initiated action, applying external force to the bars or forks.
 
The wheel, or any other part for that matter, can NOT "countersteer" on it's own.
 
That is somewhat like saying a rubber ball sitting on the table can start bouncing on it's own.
 


 
 

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Easy Rider 2
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   Posted 10/1/2010 6:49 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
PowerG said...
LOL You say you never said it, then proceed to say it again.
That's pretty simple.  The first time I did NOT say it.......and the second time, I DID.
 
Maybe you have a poor concept of reading comprehension.  rolleyes
 
 


 
 

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