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Andy VH
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   Posted 10/1/2010 7:04 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Lawrence, the whole point of my starting this thread is right at the top, and so is the entire description of countersteering.

Your question, "what you mean by initiate by countersteering, leaning is how I initiate a turn, a slight dip of the shoulder."

Countersteering, however it is done, initiates the lean. It can be done by body lean, footpeg pressure, knee into the tank or frame, and by handgrip pressure. What you describe, a slight dip of the shoulder, is a method. My bet is when you do that, you do apply slightly more pressure to one grip than the other, countersteering. If not, then the bike will not go where you want it. Now, perhaps thats how you percieve countersteering is natural, like many untrained riders. The trouble is, when in the situation where you need the bike to lean right now, quickly and accurately, the shoulder dip is not adequate. This is where the rider may respond with, "I got into the curve, but the bike wouldn't turn." I have seen riders do this, get into a turn and go wide, and they lean the upper body into the turn more expecting the bike to react. It will, eventually, but eventually will be much too late. That is why ACTIVE countersteering with palm pressure on the grips HAS to be learned and used. Otherwise, someday the rider WILL run off the turn.

When you are in a turn, hands on or hands off the grips, the front wheel has adjusted back on track and turned very slightly into the turn. BUT! Upper body lean in, footpeg pressure, hanging a knee into the turn, handgrip palm pressure, all cause the front wheel to slightly turn opposite (very slight) to adjust and increase the lean. Once it is adjusted the front wheel tracks back into the turn until the lean or path is adjusted again. Even when your bike is going straight down the road it does this just to self-track and balance. This is obvious if you ever ride a bike where the steering head bearings are way too tight, or the bearing races are dented and the forks cannot turn easily on their own. In these cases the bike weaves back and forth instead of self centering. Same for a newbie rider with a death grip on the handlebar and stiff/tense arms. The bike cannot self-correct and balance, and the newbie actually rides WORSE, weaving all over the place, than if the newbie just relaxed the grips. ALL motorcycles HAVE to wobble a teeny bit just to self-center, track straight and track through a turn.

But, again, the action of ACTIVE countersteering is THE BEST method to make a cycle track exactly through a turn where YOU want it to go, with exactly the lean angle you want. Every single published, well known cycle riding author and authority supports that. What EasyRider2 says is true, "Countersteering, by definition, is a rider initiated action, applying external force to the bars or forks. The wheel, or any other part for that matter, can NOT "countersteer" on it's own." But the front wheel does move and self center on its own. This is evident on every shopping cart with a bad bent caster wheel mount. When the mount is bent, that wheel simply oscillates on its own, quickly wobbling as it tires to self center. If the fork on your bike were bent back far enough to loose the self tracking aspect, it would do the same thing. This I have seen first hand when a member in my club hit a dog. It bent the forks back. The bike was barely rideable. My friend Bob said he rode it slowly home CONSTANTLY center-steering the front wheel back on track just to go in a straight line.


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GAJ
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   Posted 10/1/2010 7:12 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
lawrence1 said...
...when I'm riding through a turn with no hands...


Give me a break.

You're making it sound to new riders like you can jump on your bike and ride to the grocery store downhill from your house with no hands because it's all about "leaning."

Not a freaking chance.

A lazy long turn, sure, I can see that.

But 90 degree turns where you're trying to stay in your lane?

Or an evasive maneuver to avoid an obstacle?

Or any kind of spirited riding on tight twisties?

Fuggetaboutit.
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Easy Rider 2
Central Illinois / Central Florida

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   Posted 10/1/2010 7:12 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Andy VH said...
Countersteering, however it is done, initiates the lean. It can be done by body lean, footpeg pressure, knee into the tank or frame, and by handgrip pressure.
ARRRRRGGGGGHHHHH !!!
 
Weight shift is NOT countersteering.
Pressure on parts not attached to the front tire is NOT countersteering.
 
Countersteering is done ONLY by pressure on the bars or forks......or if you could reach it.....applied directly to the front axle.
 
Nothing else is "countersteering".  NOTHING.
 
That is another thing that causes confusion in the discussion........and leads to the totally false statement that "You can't turn a bike without "countersteering".
 
I quit.  This is getting ridiculous.
 
 


 
 

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Easy Rider 2
Central Illinois / Central Florida

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   Posted 10/1/2010 7:15 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
GAJ said...
lawrence1 said...
...when I'm riding through a turn with no hands...


Give me a break.

You're making it sound to new riders like you can jump on your bike and ride to the grocery store downhill from your house with no hands because it's all about "leaning."
He didn't say that; I didn't say that; nothing even close.
 
YOU are the only one who said that.
 
Give me a break, indeed. 
 
How about commenting on what was actually SAID instead of some fantasy that you make up.  shocked
 
 
 


 
 

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RedDog
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   Posted 10/1/2010 7:18 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
You guys are funny! Go and ride now, take a long ride with lots of curves, and feel the forces. It's like - magic.


RedDog
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Normal People Scare me! Travel Light and Leave Your Fears Behind You!

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GAJ
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   Posted 10/1/2010 7:33 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Easy Rider 2 said...

He didn't say that; I didn't say that; nothing even close.


YOU are the only one who said that.



Give me a break, indeed.



How about commenting on what was actually SAID instead of some fantasy that you make up. shocked


He said leaning your body is more important in turning a motorcycle than countersteering which is complete nonsense.

Post Edited (GAJ) : 10/1/2010 2:37:31 PM GMT

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louemc
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   Posted 10/1/2010 2:40 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
RedDog said...
You guys are funny! Go and ride now, take a long ride with lots of curves, and feel the forces. It's like - magic.

 
That's the only "safe" post I've seen cool  This is a funny subject...You would think everyone (at least most everyone) would have the same viewpoint of turning a Motorcycle....But...No such Luck lol
 
The most dramatic display of turning (without hands) I've seen was a stunter doing tight figure 8's with his arms straight up in the air.
 
Another No hander was on the downhill grade on Grizzly Peak Rd, guy went past with his arms folded across his chest, doing the curves there.
 
Frankly I don't know what I do...I just do it.


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Easy Rider 2
Central Illinois / Central Florida

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   Posted 10/1/2010 4:12 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
louemc said...
The most dramatic display of turning (without hands) I've seen was a stunter doing tight figure 8's with his arms straight up in the air.
 
Another No hander was on the downhill grade on Grizzly Peak Rd, guy went past with his arms folded across his chest, doing the curves there.
No Lou, you obviously were dreaming or halucinating.......because it is IMPOSSIBLE to turn a bike without countersteering.  smhair
 
Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up.  :p
 
[sarcasm off]
 
 
 


 
 

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Andy VH
Where is the earth shattering kaboom!?



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   Posted 10/1/2010 4:15 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ok, nuff of this, back to the basics. Countersteering, in its true sense, is simply varying palm pressure at the grips to cause the bike to initiate the lean required to make a turn.

I was trying to emphasize that there are other methods that do cause a bike to lean into a turn, somewhat like countersteering, that many if not all riders who are not aware of active countersteering use. From that I feel, come comments like "leaning a bike is natural". When actually, its not IF you need the bike to lean and track accurately right where you want it. For that, countersteering is the only way to control the bike with quick accurate action and response.

Like others have said, go and find a long curvy road and use it, learn it. Also, if you want to learn and practice swerving skills, the ONLY quick and accurate way to do that is assertive countersteering. No amount of body lean or shoulder tip in will do that.


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GeoffG
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   Posted 10/1/2010 10:30 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Easy Rider 2 said...
GeoffG said...

I beg to differ. I understand well enough how gyroscopic force vectors work

You mention the lean causing the front wheel to turn. That's true, but I believe it has little to do with gyroscopic force


In any case, this discussion of the physics doesn't really matter
No you don't, not really and you go on to prove that.

You should have quit while you were only a LITTLE behind. smilewinkgrin


It has everything to do with gyroscopic forces and you can't begin to understand it without first understanding the underlying principles of physics.

I quit.

Actually, I do understand your argument...I simply happen to disagree. That is allowed, last time I checked.

Difference is, I argue my point, without slinging any mud. Unlike yourself--and some others--who seen to think that belittling my intelligence or calling me names will win an argument.

If you would like me to explain my specific reasoning behind my comment, I will do so, but I get the feeling that most members don't really care.
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Easy Rider 2
Central Illinois / Central Florida

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   Posted 10/2/2010 8:14 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
GeoffG said...
win an argument.

If you would like me to explain my specific reasoning behind my comment, I will do so, but I get the feeling that most members don't really care.

No, it's not an agruement because facts are facts and you can't change the laws of physics......and I fail to see how anything I said could be construed as "name calling".....and I really meant it when I said I quit.
 
Cheers !! :-)
 
P.S.  The quotes in your replies often look wierd.  Is it because you are putting your new text INSIDE the last box instead of outside ?? 
 


 
 

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louemc
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   Posted 10/2/2010 3:42 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Actually....This might be too radical...but...suppose there is a possibility, that a whipper-snapper with an adamant opinion, could at some future date...and broader experience gained...get to a point where it's a combo and mix in all of this (and more, rear wheel steering is a mainstay in dirt)...as corners and conditions are all different (and sometimes the front wheel is on the ground, other times not on the ground)...and so is the mix of what is done in each case...and without thinking about it...any more than someone has to think about what to do to get up out of a chair?


 Focus the forces, Be The Force

Post Edited (louemc) : 10/2/2010 10:47:02 PM GMT

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PowerG
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   Posted 10/2/2010 5:15 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Because-A good understanding of how counter-steering works, and the application of that knowledge, allows precise control of turning the motorcycle, and standing it back up straight after the turn is made. It's just that simple. Sure, there are other ways to get it to turn, and all of them together are a fart in a whirlwind compared to counter-steer handlebar inputs. Maybe some guys like the instinctive approach, if it works for them, more power to them. Personally, I like to completely understand what's happening, in all its permutations. All this leaning to turn bunk is just that, and possibly dangerous to new riders reading this. People who know what they are talking about are discussing the most important technique there is involving control of a motorcycle, and we wind up with this train wreck of a thread.


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Easy Rider 2
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   Posted 10/3/2010 8:00 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
PowerG said...
 All this leaning to turn bunk is just that, and possibly dangerous to new riders reading this.
DAMN. 
 
That would have been a PERFECT post.......IF you could have just resisted the temptation to get in one last jab.
 
The "discussion" would have NEVER occurred except for the original incorrect statement: "You can't turn a bike without countersteering." 
 
This discourse could only be "dangerous" to new riders if they only read one isolated sentence from one post from the whole thread and ignore all the rest.
 
Leaning is also an important part of learning to properly handle a bike.  How many riders have you seen who lean the WRONG  way and scrape bike parts in the tamest of turns ??  I've seen a lot; I was one......for several years.
 
Guess I lied when I said "I'm done".  I AM trying to be done.  rolleyes
 
 


 
 

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lawrence1
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   Posted 10/4/2010 7:27 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
GAJ said...
(He said leaning your body is more important in turning a motorcycle than countersteering which is complete nonsense.<!-- Edit -->)
I never said that. You're a LIAR. I never said anything about not using countersteering to track through a turn, nothing.
 
Andy said...
(What you describe, a slight dip of the shoulder, is a method. My bet is when you do that, you do apply slightly more pressure to one grip than the other, countersteering)
I knew you were going to say that, and you'd be right, but my first action is a slight dip of the shoulder. And my bet is that when you're applying countersteering to initiate your turn that you are actually leaning at the same time. Thats what I disagree with Andy, your statements that countersteering alone initiates the turn. What I do is initiate the lean then use countersteering and I suspect everyone else here does the same whether they know it or not. I'm talking microseconds here as it applies to initiating the turn. Understand, I'm only talking about INITIATING the turn, nothing else. If you initiate the turn using only countersteering it makes the bike jerk in that direction, hardly a smooth action.
 
Lou said...
(it's a combo and mix in all of this (and more, rear wheel steering is a mainstay in dirt)...as corners and conditions are all different (and sometimes the front wheel is on the ground, other times not on the ground)...and so is the mix of what is done in each case...and without thinking about it...any more than someone has to think about what to do to get up out of a chair? )
 
Once again, Lou gets it right. So once a rider achieves a certain level of proficiency it all becomes natural to them. Like getting up out of a chair or walking one does not have to think about it to do it. Possibly GAJ walks around thinking lift/left  lift/right but the rest of us don't.
 
 
This thread is a trainwreck. Funny thing is, I got into this thread because I felt you instructers make it way more confusing for a beginer then what it really is with all your mumbo-jumbo explanations. Again, my original post was to let beginers know that if they start to run out of road in a turn, a forceful countersteer can save their ass.


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GAJ
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   Posted 10/4/2010 11:32 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
lawrence1 said...
When I said steering is mostly leaning I meant it's at least 51% leaning and 49% countersteering.


Sorry Lawrence, I didn't lie when I said you had stated that leaning your body is more important in turning a motorcycle than countersteering. Your statement is above, clear as day. 51% is more than 49% last I checked.

As to your comment that you never said anything about not using countersteering to track through a turn?

I agree, you never did and I did not say that you had.

Reading comprehension fail on your part. lol

I completely agree with your statement that beginners should know that if they start to run out of road in a turn, a forceful countersteer can save their ass.

That is why they teach countersteering (not leaning) as the primary means for turning a motorcycle in the MSF Courses that Andy and Casper teach.
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louemc
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   Posted 10/4/2010 12:30 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
OMG The Train wreck not only won't stop derailing, it has cars going off the trestle freaked.
 
I guess there is a world where Noobs rule, set the standards and limits.
 
So what if a noob can't have any idea how fast they are going, can't tell what a corner means, can't tell what leaning means (or what makes a bike lean)...that same noob also won't now how much pressure is correct for the counter steering, to initiate a lean.
 
Not all noobs are cut from the same die-set.  Some noobs go through life with intelligence, examining, feeling out actions, accumulating experiences to have educated guess's/judgement to face new situations....
 
Then there are the Nancy Boys/Klutz/Screw-ups lol  In that World, they should just shut up when the Adults are talking lol


 Focus the forces, Be The Force

Post Edited (louemc) : 10/4/2010 7:48:16 PM GMT

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PowerG
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   Posted 10/4/2010 2:27 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Easy Rider 2 said...
PowerG said...
 All this leaning to turn bunk is just that, and possibly dangerous to new riders reading this.
DAMN. 
 
That would have been a PERFECT post.......IF you could have just resisted the temptation to get in one last jab.
 
The "discussion" would have NEVER occurred except for the original incorrect statement: "You can't turn a bike without countersteering." 
 
This discourse could only be "dangerous" to new riders if they only read one isolated sentence from one post from the whole thread and ignore all the rest.
 
Leaning is also an important part of learning to properly handle a bike.  How many riders have you seen who lean the WRONG  way and scrape bike parts in the tamest of turns ??  I've seen a lot; I was one......for several years.
 
Guess I lied when I said "I'm done".  I AM trying to be done.  rolleyes
 
 
That is not a jab, just a statement of fact. You don't lean to turn the bike, you lean with the bike as it does, due to the countersteer you used to make it lean, to make the turn. New (and even experienced) riders may not be fully aware of what's happening in the process, but carefully reading and applying what some of these MSF instructors on here (guys that are trained to teach new riders) will give them a leg up on knowing exactly what they are doing.


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Andy VH
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   Posted 10/4/2010 2:32 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ok, pretty soon I am going to lock my own post because this is simply turning into a waste of an arguement. For instance, Lawrence, you say to me, "And my bet is that when you're applying countersteering to initiate your turn that you are actually leaning at the same time. Thats what I disagree with Andy, your statements that countersteering alone initiates the turn." Wrong.
 
I'd have to look back, but I'm pretty sure I wrote that many methods can be used to initiate a bike to lean. I mentioned them many times over. But, countersteering IS THE MOST EFFECTIVE, period, no arguement. I did not say other methods can't be used, but my emphasis is on effective accurate control.  I can readily show anyone that a direct and assertive countersteering action at the grips INITIATES the lean. There are many youtube videos that show just that. As anyone who has followed me on a twisty road can attest, they later say that they saw me going deep into a turn and then the bike quickly leans in on the line I intended, quick and efficient. Yes I can start a lean if I want with my upper body, but it is a lot less work to simply press on the grip in the direction I intend the bike to go. Then while in the turn I can use countersteering to adjust my lean angle and line if needed.

Keith Code, David Hough, Lee Parks, Ken Condon, and numerous other known cycle riding experts, all who have published books about cycle riding techniques, all attest to countersteering as the method to initiate lean and control the bike's path through a turn. Keith Code even built a bike with a handlebar attached to the frame, not to the forks, to prove his point that countersteering initiates and controls the lean. Read this article for the details:  
http://www.mistermotero.com/bodysteering.htm
 
Plus, for anyone that has tried to swerve a bike quickly and accurately, and for anyone who actually trains to sharpen riding skills, knows that to affect a quick and accurate swerve, ONLY the hands and countersteering can do it quickly enough to make an effective swerve. If leaning is applied first, and then countersteering, it will never be quick enough to avoid the obstacle. The timing of the upper body lean to initiate a lean for a swerve is FAR too slow to be effctive. I have seen this confirmed in almost every MSF class I have taught over the past 18 years and almost 3,000 students.


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Post Edited (Andy VH) : 10/4/2010 9:40:06 PM GMT

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Easy Rider 2
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   Posted 10/4/2010 4:08 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
PowerG said...
That is not a jab, just a statement of fact. You don't lean to turn the bike, you lean with the bike as it does, due to the countersteer you used to make it lean, to make the turn.
No, I'm sorry but that is just not right. 
It is NOT a statement of fact.  It is a dilusion.
And it won't be true no matter how many times and how many different ways you say it. 
 
Shifting your mass relative to the center line......or relative to that imaginary center of mass line somewhere in the ether near the bike......WILL make the bike lean, with in turn WILL MAKE the bike turn, some.
 
There is nothing that causes your body to lean the RIGHT way as a result of a countersteer......except for your ass which is planted to the seat.  The rest of your upper body can and often DOES lean the wrong way.......which makes the bike harder to turn as it acts against the countersteering force that you are trying to apply.
 
I think that Andy should clean up this thread and lock it because there are one or two posters who are just being stubborn asses and continue to repeat mis-information.
 
Leaning does cause the bike to turn.  Simple fact of physics.
You CAN turn the bike, in a limited fashoin, depending on your skill level, without ANY countersteering.
Leaning, weight shift, knees on the tank, shifting weight on the pegs and various other things are NOT countersteering.
Countersteering IS applying pressure to the bars or forks, period.
 
Those are the facts.  Your ramblings are just mis-information......but it is becoming increasingly difficult to "discuss" it without getting personal.  VERY difficult.
 
Once again, except for the contrived "demonstration bike" with the welded bars.........nobody in this whole thread EVER SAID or even implied that countersteering does not account for most of the steering action.
Nobody ever said or even implied that countersteering is not a very important part of normal riding.
Nobody ever said or even implied that you could come even close to riding normally without countersteering.
NOBODY SAID ANY OF THAT.
 
But then there are those who go off the deep end and say "You can't turn a bike without countersteering" AND THAT IS JUST PLAIN NOT TRUE.  You absolutely CAN do it; I do it everyday that I ride.  To continue to argue that point is just being stubborn and creating usless friction and unnecessary confusion.
 
 
 



 
 

Post Edited (Easy Rider 2) : 10/4/2010 11:20:43 PM GMT

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louemc
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   Posted 10/4/2010 4:41 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Maybe there is a conflict of a defining of counter-steering..
one person could say it like it only is a result of a rider pushing a handle bar...
another person could say they leaned the bike over with body weight shift and an assist with a knee push (or body English) and while they did that...they felt the bars move... in the direction of counter steering (this is very dramatic on a freeway on ramp that allows speed to get up to freeway speed, and your doing it on a fairly tight radus, & banked corner).

And of course there will be a sicko somewhere (don't ask me how I know) that says..Ya do it both, at the same time, hard.. hard and fast..lol


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lawrence1
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   Posted 10/4/2010 9:50 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Well I'll be gold darned. Like it really matters, I still contend the lean comes microseconds before the countersteering, seemingly one fluid motion, almost at the same time. At least thats my style. But hey, if you wanna quote Keith Code, I got all his books. From A Twist Of The Wrist The Motorcycle Road Racers Handbook, chapter 9 Steering, page 76, bottom paragraph;

 

 "Let's take a look at what happens when you steer. You are approaching a right-hand turn. You lean right, and the bike begins to go right. Since you are holding on to the bars and moving over to the right your left arm is pulling the left side of the bar towards you, which turns the bars to the left. If you lean left to go around a left turn, you pull on the right bar. This must happen if you're holding onto the bars. If you're not  holding the bars, the bike will not begin to turn where you lean. You may be pushing on the other bar as well as pulling-it depends on how you hold the bars."


Pigs of Life MC

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Easy Rider 2
Central Illinois / Central Florida

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   Posted 10/5/2010 7:55 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
lawrence1 said...

 if you wanna quote Keith Code, I got all his books. 

 " You lean right, and the bike begins to go right. 

 If you're not  holding the bars, the bike will not begin to turn where you lean. "

OK, listen, Keith Code might be the greatest bike instructor since GOD himself but he contridicts himself in the above quote......and his infamous "welded bar" experiment proves something but not what he is often quoted as stating.  The riders in his test WERE ABLE TO MAKE THE BIKE GO OFF LINE (TURN) A BIT JUST BY LEANING OR SHIFTING WEIGHT.

So it actually proves TWO things about your average rider: You CAN make the bike turn with leaning only.....but not much......and countersteering is necessary in normal daily riding.

The second statement above is just simply WRONG; I don't care who said it. Now, if you change just a couple of  words, then I could agree with it: "If you're not holding the bars, the bike will not CONTINUE to turn......enough to get where you want it to go."

This time I really quit because this is getting personal and creating hard feelings AND is largely not important to much of anybody; it's mostly pointless.  It's just unfortunate that those who have it wrong are the first to jump up and spout their incorrect "facts".



 
 

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lawrence1
06 ZR1000



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   Posted 10/5/2010 8:52 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
ER said...
(The second statement above is just simply WRONG; I don't care who said it. Now, if you change just a couple of  words, then I could agree with it: "If you're not holding the bars, the bike will not CONTINUE to turn......enough to get where you want it to go." )
 
I also thought he worded that wrong but it was in the paragraph.  In his defense though, his mind is on the racetrack, not on riding with no hands through some lazy s-curves.
 
 
 


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Moedad
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   Posted 10/11/2010 9:18 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Everybody knows that how your bikes turns is directly related to what oil you use. There's the real discussion. roll
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