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ChapR6s
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   Posted 12/1/2011 3:08 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I wish I had read Andy VH's post before I went out today…

Today was about 45 degrees, but it was a nice sunny day for the 1st of December so I figured why not go out for a ride. I threw on my gear, checked my tire pressure, suited my wife up and off we went. We rode for only about 30 miles, until she started complaining about being cold (not her fault we mostly ride in spring/summer in other words while being protected for contact she and I werent so much for the cool weather) so we stopped grabbed some hot coffee to re-group and hopped back on the road to finish up the ride. We finished up the ride and got home safely, not working on anything new with her on the back, I decided when I got home I'd go back out and work on a few things. It was very sunny out still, the air temp was warm, but I could feel that the ground wasn't. All I wanted to work on was "blipping" the throttle, so I decided the roads around my neighborhood would work (problem #1).

I practiced what I thought was a rather easy task for the first time with the bike running. I had practiced numerous times with the bike off and just straddling the bike. It felt rather comfortable so I thought I was ready to try on the road. The roads I was working on don't have a ton of traffic (problem #2), but I felt safe working on it where I was. I quickly found that while I was stationary and didn't have the bike moving it was an easy task that became increasingly more difficult at speed and making turns and monitoring traffic. I practiced a few times, thought maybe I was being a bit hard on myself for not picking it up quickly, parked the bike in the garage. I was a bit upset at myself for not being comfortable with the exercise but said for the first time, maybe it wasn't that bad. I have very small hands, have moved the levers as close to the throttle as possible, so braking while "blipping" the throttle can be difficult. This is where I probably should have quit for the day (problem #3).

Shortly after dismounting, I hadn't even taken off my gear yet, I decided I was being lazy and how many more nice days would I have to work on things so I saddled back up, backed out of the garage, and off I went on the same roads around my house. My neighborhood has 3 traffic circles with-in a mile of each other, but they've never been much of a concern for me. I managed my way thru the first circle got the bike up to about 45 mph and was approaching the second one. I began my "blipping" exercise and it didn't go well. I found myself being extremely jerky hitting the throttle and not matching up the levers (brake and clutch) and downshifting thru the gears. After all the videos and books made it seem so simple, and here I was being a complete idiot and not getting it. I was able to get the bike slowed tho and was set up to take the first exit in the circle. As I was approaching the circle there was a car entering. I don't need anyone to explain the right of way to me, I do it for a living but for whatever reason I thought I had judged the vehicle inside the circle for exiting the circle (problem #4 and the biggest one yet, I drive all day long and judge these things really well, only problem is my driving a car is a lot more instinctual than my riding is still)…clearly it didn't. You have a dysfunctional rider working on crap I shouldn't have been on the road approaching an intersection, a surprise vehicle, which shouldn't have been on inside the traffic circle. I quickly remembered Keith Code's don't panic steps, but I needed to make an evasive maneuver. A more experienced rider probably accelerates and gets thru the intersection without an issue, either by making the right hander in front of the vehicle and possibly looking like a D or decided to accelerate and go thru the circle out the other side. I decided to do neither and applied what? BRAKE! I didn't feel like I grabbed it, but however much I did grab was enough to get the bike out of whack. Now which brake is a mystery and thats why I'm bringing this up on here. Clearly I've already checked my ego at the door. As you approach this particular circle the road goes slightly left and then obviously entering the circle you go right. When I began squeezing the front brake I assume mostly the rear tire began to slide right then out to the left. I knew I was going to go off, but I tried not to panic, I eased off the brake pushed the bike to the right, leaned into the corner behind the car who was in the circle and had a stain on the other end.

I had made it, but narrowly. If I had wrecked, it would have been a single vehicle, probably minor injuries due to me going so slowly and I would have had a badly banged up bike and bruised ego. I couldn't tell tho, if I was going to go down if it would have been a high side or a low side? I felt the bike buck a little bit, but it may have been me just getting the sh*t scared out of me, or maybe the bike low sides and off it goes into the middle of the circle and I'm in lane 1 picking up the pieces. I'm almost certain it was an instinctual grip of the front brake, if I remember correctly I had set my entry speed into the circle for the right exit, got surprised by the vehicle and grabbed too much front brake (although I do like the rear). Needless to say I took it easy made 2 right turns and parked the beast in the garage. Told my wife who was very supportive and began the contemplation game.

Besides the things I pointed out as being problems. WTF HAPPENED?? I was pissed that I almost bit it and thankful that I somehow was able to save it without going down.
freaked
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touringbikers-joe
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   Posted 12/1/2011 3:49 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'm sorry....what's "blipping" the throttle??


It's not the destination.......It's the Journey.

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GAJ
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   Posted 12/1/2011 4:27 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jerky control inputs can really upset a bike as you describe.

Did you use any rear brake at all?

Did you perhaps slam off the throttle without pulling in the clutch leading the rear to lose traction as you swerved?


Selling my one owner '97 TL1000S: www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=372346

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el SID
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   Posted 12/1/2011 5:12 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Errr,I think you know what the .... happened. You pointed out every shortcoming. You had a shocker. It happens. I would recommend a dirt course school. Its great way to learn how to control a motorcycle. In any situation. Plus its a shameless plug for dirtbikes.
In lower temps you should really be going after riding,and getting used to lower tire temps,cold ground,and how they affect the bike. But sounds like learned that one today. I would place a wager one of the reasons you were struggling is because you were cold. If you are cold,the ability to stay loose on the bike gets harder. You kinda stiffen up and inputs arent done with ease. Even cold fingers have a affect on the riding ability. At least with me it does.
Did you see the round about,or cage blenders, as I like to call them thread? Take a look,I used google maps and threw the worst ones around here up there. LOL
As to the reason why the bike did what it did,I have no clue,besides savin your @ss. I would sleep on it and see what you think about it all tomorrow.


Best bike out is the one Im on,sod the rest lmao
current hacks


1996 honda vfr
2012 tuono rsv4 aprc on order baby.... march 2012
1973 kawasaki h1
1998 suzuki rm 125

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Easy Rider 2
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   Posted 12/1/2011 6:03 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
ChapR6s said...
 All I wanted to work on was "blipping" the throttle,
Major mistake #0.
 
In most street riding situations, "blipping" the throttle accomplishes NOTHING useful.  NOTHING.
If you are paying attention and matching gears to your speed properly (maybe THAT is what you should be working on) there is no need to blip the throttle.
 
If you want to hear a little more growl from the engine, practice downshifting at a slightly higher speed to get more engine braking.
 
Screwing with the throttle when you don't NEED to be can actually cause problems..........something like the story in the post I am making this reply to !!! skull
 
 


'06 Suzuki S50 (VS800)
'07 Honda Shadow VLX 600
 

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RedDog
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   Posted 12/1/2011 6:25 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
touringbikers-joe said...
I'm sorry....what's "blipping" the throttle??


Downshifting and blipping the throttle is important task on sportbikes, especially on older bikes or bikes that has no other means of reducing the impact getting briskly into lower gear with lower RPMs. My beloved GSX-R1000 has this means, or Slipper Clutch. Just the fact of introducing Slipper Clutch on road bikes stresses the importance of dodging the stronger engine braking when downshifting.

For example, one friend of mine too a ride on a SV1000, came into a corner and just downshifted to 2nd gear. The rear wheel locked up and he faced and issue. He was not used to this from his CBR where 4 cylinders reduces the engine braking is less than the twin SW. Here's where blipping is a technique needed.

Downshifting smoothly on a sportbike is important to not upsetting the bike. Also, if you're riding 2Up, the helmet banging is reduced blipping. All for a smooth ride. Even cruisers do better blipping/matching the RPM with the lower gear while downshifting.

My opinion is totally different than what ER2 said above.

Here's what SportRider stated in an article about Riding Technique:

1. Downshifting smoothly on a sportbike, especially while braking hard from high speed, requires a definite measure of skill and dexterity. In order to avoid upsetting the bike, the engine rpm must be matched to road speed when the clutch is fully disengaged, otherwise the rear tire will momentarily "chatter" and upset the bike as the engine is forced to match road speed involuntarily. This means that the rider must "blip" the throttle to raise the engine rpm during downshifts-but he must do this while simultaneously pulling on the front brake lever to slow down. While this riding skill is obviously necessary on the racetrack, it can also pay big dividends in street-riding situations where riding smoothly is a must; for instance, any situation where you are cornering and braking at the same time.

2. The idea of blipping the throttle between downshifts can be intimidating for the uninitiated, but with a little practice, the technique can soon become second nature. First, make sure that your levers are adjusted so that they are comfortably in reach of your fingers when sitting in a normal riding position, and that your throttle is adjusted for minimal play in the cable. The front brake lever should be angled downward enough to be easily gripped with your hand in the closed throttle position. With the engine running in neutral, try blipping the throttle slightly while pulling firmly on the brake lever-note that it doesn't take much throttle movement to get the revs up. Then practice simultaneously pulling and releasing the clutch quickly when you blip the throttle (remembering to continue pulling on the brake lever as if you were slowing for a corner).


3. The next step is to practice this technique while riding in a safe area with no traffic. As you brake and begin your downshift, simply perform the same practice drill as before, but add the act of downshifting. The action of blipping the throttle and the downshift should be simultaneous and quick, and it doesn't take a whole lot of revs to match the engine to road speed; unless you're riding at racetrack aggression levels, all it will require is a slight throttle blip. With practice, you'll know just how much is necessary at various speeds. Note that mostly the palm of your hand handles the act of moving the throttle because your upper body weight is centered on your palms under braking anyway, and your fingers are busy actuating the brake and holding the bar. All it takes is a slight wrist movement to blip the throttle. You'll find this will help avoid affecting your braking action due to influencing your fingers' grip on the brake lever.


4. If you find that you still have problems with this technique, try adjusting your brake lever in so that it's easier to reach (without hindering your ability to pull the lever in for maximum braking, of course). If you still have trouble, you will have to employ the "non-blip" method many racers (such as AMA perennial front-runner Eric Bostrom) still use. This simply means the clutch is released gradually after the downshift so that the engine rpms can progressively match road speed without the rear wheel chattering. The downside is that the rider loses the added engine braking while the clutch is disengaged and the bike "freewheels," and he must compensate with the additional use of the brakes during this time. Also, it requires even more skill at manipulating and controlling the bike while simultaneously releasing the clutch lever slowly and gradually.

Read more: http://www.sportrider.com/ride/rss/146_0402_shift_blip_throttle/index.html#ixzz1fKud6TQN


RedDog
Think Ahead! Travel Light & Leave Your Fears Behind You!
Normal People Scare me! Travel Light and Leave Your Fears Behind You!

Post Edited (RedDog) : 12/2/2011 1:33:34 AM GMT

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ChapR6s
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   Posted 12/1/2011 6:43 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
GAJ, EL SID and RedDog, Thank you guys for the help and you're input. I knew I could rely on you guys! RedDog I could quote your entire post as helpful and useful, so thank you especially for your input.

ER2, thanks for reading and your post, but as described above, I think its very beneficial as described above.

I think in the end I did learn a lot today, and maybe my confidence of being able to "practice" better riding techniques on the road blinded me from being the usual smart rider I typically am. Lesson learned hopefully. To start you'll find me blipping the throttle in the parking lot. I found a great video if anyone else who reads this is having difficulty.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6n9Q7TPPgY&feature=fvwrel
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RedDog
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   Posted 12/1/2011 7:12 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hey Chap, practice, practice, and then ... practice. You'll master it. Just be careful and take small steps.

You may want to practice your braking too. To me it sounds like you stepped a bit too hard on your rear
brake thus the slide. The beauty is that you did correct and eased it off thus regaining control of the bike.
A tougher one to remember, and hopefully you don't set yourself in that position, is when the front wheel
starts sliding in a corner ... then the right thing is to gas it. Sounds weird, but to practice, use a little dirt
bike in a field. It works. Then if the situation comes, you will react naturally.

If you ever have heard the phrase: Lay the bike down as that is the correct thing to do, forget it. Learn
how to work our your own panic management. Obviously you suck in all you can from Keith Code etc.
Information and the right one is very important. Just take few steps at a time.

Valentino Rossi did not become what he is without, shall we say some issues.


RedDog
Think Ahead! Travel Light & Leave Your Fears Behind You!
Normal People Scare me! Travel Light and Leave Your Fears Behind You!

Post Edited (RedDog) : 12/2/2011 2:32:31 AM GMT

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Easy Rider 2
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   Posted 12/2/2011 9:00 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
RedDog said...
touringbikers-joe said...
I'm sorry....what's "blipping" the throttle??


My opinion is totally different than what ER2 said above.

That's because we are coming at it from two completely different perspectives.
 
IF you ride your bike on the street like you are in a race on a track........then what you are saying is no doubt true.
 
What I am saying is that you shouldn't be riding like that in the first place, not on the street.
 
I know that we are not going to agree on this so there isn't much point in continuing.
 


'06 Suzuki S50 (VS800)
'07 Honda Shadow VLX 600
 

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RedDog
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   Posted 12/2/2011 9:07 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
So then, we agree to disagree.


RedDog
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Normal People Scare me! Travel Light and Leave Your Fears Behind You!

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ChapR6s
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   Posted 12/2/2011 9:46 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
It seems that whether or not you should or shouldn't do this on the street can be debated, but practicing this skill simply can not. If it will make you a better rider in the end then it is hard to argue the benefits, but at least you two calmly settled it ;-)

I had some more time to sit and think about it, and definitely think I lost some feel for the bike due to lack of feel in my hands. I even thought about it while I was riding once or twice that maybe I needed to purchase a better pair of fall/winter gloves even for practicing because I just couldn't feel the inputs in the controls very well, so well pointed out El Sid.

And I didn't answer your questions you posed yesterday GAJ (sorry bout that). I still can't answer them with much accuracy except to say my SR's (survival reactions) got in the way of my control inputs.

I had a lot of things that I would change about the entire ride yesterday, but can't dwell about the stupidity of some of my actions/inaction. I definitely learned from it, and will definitely store it in the memory bank for other hair-rasing situations that will undoubtedly arise.
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RedDog
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   Posted 12/2/2011 12:14 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
ChapR6s said...
It seems that whether or not you should or shouldn't do this on the street can be debated, but practicing this skill simply can not. If it will make you a better rider in the end then it is hard to argue the benefits, but at least you two calmly settled it ;-)

Well spoken. idea


RedDog
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GAJ
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   Posted 12/2/2011 12:31 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I "rev match" on all my bikes, every ride and in my cars as well.

As Red Dog pointed out it generally makes for a smoother ride, allows you finer control of weight transfer, and is a huge advantage when going downhill, especially long steep declines, where you want to spare the brakes and the clutch as much as possible.

New riders/drivers tend to use the clutch, by releasing it slowly, to rev match which puts undue stress on it.


Selling my one owner '97 TL1000S: www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=372346

Post Edited (GAJ) : 12/2/2011 9:30:05 PM GMT

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GAJ
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   Posted 12/2/2011 1:45 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Chap, you might find this article of some value.

From Sport Rider's "Riding Tips" section.

Here's part of the article; click on the link for the full article.

Even though many of today's sportbikes with slipper clutches let you make sloppy downshifts with little penalty, there are still situations where proper technique can make for a smoother corner entry, even with a slipper-clutch-equipped bike. The key is to correctly match the engine's revs to the bike's speed, which may seem obvious but is difficult to master in practice. In addition, there are situations where the process can be modified to other advantages

You've probably experienced the results of a ragged downshift. The rear tire snakes as you let the clutch out and the slow-spinning engine drags the rear wheel speed down suddenly. The key is to blip the throttle when the clutch is pulled in, raising the engine's speed so that the rpm is correct for the gear and wheel speed when you let the clutch out again. For example, if you're cruising along at 50 mph and 5000 rpm, dropping a gear will raise the required engine speed to roughly 6500 rpm. Not blipping the throttle on the downshift will have the engine close to idle, whereas you should have it spinning close to the required rpm before letting the clutch out. It's a lot to accomplish in a short period of time, but with practice giving a short burst of throttle during a downshift will become quick and second nature.


www.sportrider.com/riding_tips/146_1003_smooth_downshifting_riding_skills/index.html


Selling my one owner '97 TL1000S: www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=372346

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lionlady
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   Posted 12/2/2011 2:12 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Am I understanding this? You went for a ride with your wife on the back, and you are still working on smooth shifting? I'm going to strongly urge you to leave your wife at home until you've got those basics nailed down. I mean no longer have to think about the process, nailed down.

Consider: How will you live the rest of your life if you screw up on the road and get your wife killed or maimed, in your inexperience?


ATGATT: Because walking away in disgust, beats riding away in an ambulance.

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ChapR6s
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   Posted 12/2/2011 2:14 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Re-read what I wrote. Thanks.
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ChapR6s
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   Posted 12/2/2011 2:17 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Any schmuck can downshift smoothly. Blipping is an advanced skill not used by many riders, working on that skill alone is what I was doing at the time of the incident.
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ChapR6s
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   Posted 12/2/2011 2:18 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
GAJ thanks again.
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lionlady
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   Posted 12/2/2011 2:19 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
ChapR6s said...
Re-read what I wrote. Thanks.


I did. I know you weren't practicing with her on the back. But that you need to practice is sort of what worries me. You're taking her out when you aren't proficient at riding on your own. Smooth shifting is one of the keys to operation and stability.


ATGATT: Because walking away in disgust, beats riding away in an ambulance.

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ChapR6s
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   Posted 12/2/2011 2:37 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
lionlady said...
Smooth shifting is one of the keys to operation and stability.


I get that. And I have been smoothly downshifting for 2 1/2 years just fine. I recently got interested in track riding and have been doing a lot of work reading/video's ect into track riding and I am now beginning to work on the more advanced riding techniques. I truly don't see how this is a problem.
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Richard47
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   Posted 12/2/2011 4:08 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

I always blip the throttle when I downshift. Doesn't matter if I'm riding my old 90cc two stroke Suzuki or when I used to own a V-max. I've always done it, I like to be kind to the transmission. I can't say I've ever felt the need to practice it though, it's easy enough to do. I don't do it in the car, I find the car engine has a much greater mass and it doesn't respond well to the technique.

I'll second what lionlady said about taking a passenger before you are fully competent, I wouldn't do it.


Toilet Brush Dog Owner

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ChapR6s
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   Posted 12/2/2011 4:36 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Richard47 said...
I can't say I've ever felt the need to practice it though, it's easy enough to do.


Thats awesome for you Richard…how long have you been riding? Considering you joined this in 2004, a lot longer than me. Plus you live in the UK. Motorcycles over there are like Nascar here (not that I'm a huge NASCAR fan), but my point is, in the UK riding is something that is a HUGE part of your lives. Like I said I checked my ego a long time ago when I began riding. I started later in life and unlike most who started on dirt bikes or grew up with it who have little fear when they're young, I don't feel like getting hurt in a wreck, so a lot of things are risk/reward for this guy.
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Richard47
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   Posted 12/3/2011 2:29 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

I've been riding since 1964. At that time few young people owned cars (not so many older ones either), so there were a lot of small bikes, like Honda step-throughs, on the road. My first bike was a Suzuki 80, which I thrashed unmercifully. It was a great little bike.

 I was self taught and it would be fair to say that I didn't have a good teacher. Although I found it easy to ride a bike, learning not to ride like a fool came after some painful lessons. Fortunately a small bike like my Suzuki limited some of the damage I could do. It's just as well I didn't start on a 1000cc, 150bhp monster!  


Toilet Brush Dog Owner

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RedDog
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   Posted 12/3/2011 8:37 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I remember that neat, little Suzuki 80. That had some power compared to the very popular 50, that you didn't need to have a driver's license for in Norway - read: The drunk riders' choice when they lost their driver's license. I had the Tempo Sport 125/175 from 1967. Man Richard, you have 3 more year of blipping than me.

On bikes with lang span between the gear ratios and fewer cylinders, I even find myself blipping up-shifting - all for a super smooth ride. When you ride 90% 2Up, you can never get smooth enough.


RedDog
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Normal People Scare me! Travel Light and Leave Your Fears Behind You!

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ZX Rider
Triumph guy



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Date Joined May 2010
Total Posts : 485
 
   Posted 12/3/2011 9:32 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
In the almost 50 years of riding, never knew blipping the throttle was necessary. Guess, just lucky. Blipping seems to be a strange thing to do in the first place with the constant mesh transmissions of today.


Asphalt, the greatest tattoo remover.

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