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HogWild
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   Posted 9/30/2007 3:32 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
When you buy a bike that uses an S&S engine the one thing you want to see is the Certificate of Authenticity. Now, if you're dumb enough to buy one without it then you are taking chances on that builder's expertise. Personally I wouldn't touch one that didn't have it. As for the undefined level of performance, here too I think the Big Chief is dreaming. At any rate the attached is what you want to see when buying anything with an S&S engine.
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Chunky Monkey
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   Posted 9/30/2007 3:55 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
HogWild said... As for the undefined level of performance, here too I think the Big Chief is dreaming. At any rate the attached is what you want to see when buying anything with an S&S engine.
Not sure what you are talking about here. I did not mention performance or did I. I didnt mean to
 
Does that S&S Cert go with engines that are built outside of the S&S factory but by certified builders?
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HogWild
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   Posted 9/30/2007 5:58 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Big Chief said...
HogWild said...
As for the undefined level of performance, here too I think the Big Chief is dreaming. At any rate the attached is what you want to see when buying anything with an S&S engine.

Not sure what you are talking about here. I did not mention performance or did I. I didn't mean to


Does that S&S Cert go with engines that are built outside of the S&S factory but by certified builders?


Much as you have previously mentioned BC, engines or shall I say engine components can be purchased from a variety of vendors including S&S and then assembled at a lesser production cost at a build shop elsewhere; no cert for this one. This is why folks should be on the look out for the Certificate of Authenticity when purchasing a custom build. Any complete engine purchased from S&S will come with one. Granted, you will pay between 5 and 10K for that engine but you are also guaranteed that engine has been built and tested at S&S and meets their respective standards both in terms of performance and build quality. I happen to like the S&S product and find their quality standards to be very high but then again that's what we're paying for too.

Post Edited (HogWild) : 10/1/2007 1:01:44 AM GMT

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The Real Pappy
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   Posted 9/30/2007 6:53 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Big Chief said...
You can get an S&S EVO 92ci at JP for about $5,200 with ignition.

Sounds like Indian did what all the other American brands do that use S&S. The cost of buying a complete engine from S&S is too expensive for a company that is not a custom shop. A place building one off like West Coast Choppers can get away with the cost of a crate engine but someone like Big Dog just can't. The price of the bikes would be too high. It is much cheaper to buy the parts and pay people to assemble them at 15 bucks an hour on an assembly line.

Plus they save money by not buying all the parts from S&S. If you have not looked into building an engine you really should. The mark up S&S makes on parts it buys from other suppliers is very very high. Smart companies just buy direct or find other suppliers that charge less.

So knowing that Indian built the S&S engines in house is not a surprise at all.

Is John White the wrench who did the work on the KC Cheef and Power Stroke bikes? No disrespect to him but I thought I had read that the Power Plus was just an EVO with a few cosmetic changes? Seems anyone who knows the EVO engine should be able to find the issues and fix them. It's not like the EVO was released without problems.

It's good to hear that the new owners are starting over with the engine. Sometimes it's better to just start over then to go through and repair someone else's mistakes.


The Real Pappy. Your bike is b-e-a-u-t-i-f-u-l!!! What does the other one look like?
We are working hard to complete the second bike for Biketoberfest but at this point it doesn't seem likely. The work is just eating my lunch these days. The second bike is flat black with most of the chrome such as forks, bars and nacell powder coated black. The rims are red and wide white walls. I'm going for the chopped 49 Merc look. Added Nitrous that I bought from Charger. Should be hitting about 120HP at 4200 RPM.
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KC Cheef
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   Posted 9/30/2007 9:17 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yep--I'm guessing the PMs have been flying Pappy.
Lets see--do you talk to FaggotyLiar--LR--or Maldev.
Anger issues--here we go again!
I don't have any--I just ride my Cheef.
I'm not angry about anything--hell I bought my bike brand new before the factory shut down--$17.5k off the showroom floor.
When the factory closed down My dealer stuck a 5 year unlimited mileage warranty on it for free--when the motor blew out in it he even paid the shipping to Reno to have the best PP motor rebuilder in the US rebuild it.
I got 45k on the bike now and nothing but miles and smiles--what do I have to be angry about?
You listen to much to the BS the boys over on your site put out.
I've tried to explain to them before--nothing to get personal about--it's a motorcycle--and I've tried to explain to them that to disagree with an opinion is not disrespect--it's freedom of choice and expression--try it sometime instead of being a lemming.
It might surprise you how well I know one of your bikes.
35k on a 7 year old bike that you bought with 12k on it?
HMMMMNNNNN!
Nope--just do a little checking on what was done to your bike BEFORE you got hold of it--I'm thinking by the time you got it it was pretty much right--'cause I know and have ridden with the guy who owned it before you--and I know and have ridden with the guy who wrenched it--hell I belong to their riding club.

Hey Big Chief--yepp an evo--and it can be fixed by anyone.
Just keep on spreading that word around--lets me keep on looking for another one that I can buy cheap.
Just wait until their owners get tired of having it fixed--and fixed--and fixed again prety soon they get fed up and dump them--those are the ones I keep an eye out for.
And -- my bike was not done by John White--it went to Reno Nevada to JAM LTD.
Best PP mechanic there is--PERIOD.
I have 42k on it after the rebuild, and it just seems to keep getting stronger.
And yes--I agree it is cheper to assemble in house.
BUT.
Like I said--do a little research on the ways Gilroy even managed to fuck up an S&S Engine--it'll surprise the hell out of you.
Oh--and as far as the quality of S&S--well there is a little story of a QC issue they had a while back with their-"Balanced flywheel assemblies" freaked

Post Edited (KC Cheef) : 10/1/2007 4:22:51 AM GMT

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aogop
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   Posted 10/1/2007 2:01 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Some quick comments-

At least the new ownership didn't get saddled with the R&D costs for the Powerplus.

If all the new owners do is re-use existing tooling and build plans from the last incarnation, I can't see them making sales. Margin maybe, since they have little R&D but the previous owners didn't sell many to begin with.

My gut says these guys just bought the company "as-is," and expect to continue producing the exact same models as the previous owner only with a little more hype.

Don't get me wrong, I think the previous Chief looks outstanding, but I think it will be a hard sell if they don't attempt any further innovation to show they are a different company than the previous one.


'06 DL1000

Post Edited (aogop) : 10/1/2007 9:05:59 PM GMT

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KC Cheef
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   Posted 10/1/2007 2:50 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yep--The new model appears t be cming out as an improved '03 or '04.
The R&D on the engine?
I'm guessing, and it's only a guess is they have chosen the wrong fellow to fix the problems--we'll see--but if anyone lives around KM--take a look in the parking lot and see if there are ever any Florida plates in there.
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NoMoreChickenStrips
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   Posted 10/1/2007 4:50 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
On TOPIC, I like the article/interview. It appears that INDIAN will go slow and get it right. Only time will tell – and I bet the market responds appropriately. Too little and they’ll get an earful. Anything else will be just right. It will be nice to have another “American” V-twin Cruiser line to choose from – and hopefully admire. I like the looks of the Gilroy bikes and hope they will carry on and improve it. No small task to start a company around a name. It appears they have some very good experience in the motor sports industry tho so I can’t wait to see what they come up with. AND hope they get quality assurance built in right this time.

It appears that the last incarnation of Indian was a rush job. No wonder you have bitter souls like this guy wandering around attacking people and misplacing his loyalties – because he certainly has no love of the brand anymore – too bad. Appears here he worships one guy but won’t take his work to him because he likes another guy better. Plus he has been getting handouts of “free” warranties and who knows what else – and he still vomits bitterness towards people and his brand that he claims. Maybe it speaks more to who he is than anything about the upcoming release of Indian. Hopefully Indian can leave losers like this behind as they try to make a comeback.

KC Cheef said...
Of course a lot of the issues with that motor were discovered by John White--all he can get from the "TRUE INDIAN SUPPORTERS is grief)

KC Cheef said...
And -- my bike was not done by John White--it went to Reno Nevada to JAM LTD.
Best PP mechanic there is--PERIOD.

KC Cheef said...
When the factory closed down My dealer stuck a 5 year unlimited mileage warranty on it for free--when the motor blew out in it he even paid the shipping to Reno to have the best PP motor rebuilder in the US rebuild it.

KC Cheef said...
The R&D on the engine?
I'm guessing, and it's only a guess is they have chosen the wrong fellow to fix the problems--we'll see
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KC Cheef
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   Posted 10/1/2007 8:04 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Well hello FaggotyLiar.
Don't be a stranger--introduce yourself to these nice folks.
And don't be shy about using the new riders name you chose to give yourself--it is embarassing--but since an intellectual like yourself chose it--go on and live with it.
Yep==here we go-
I'm attacking people?
And I'm bitter?
Damn--I crack up every time you come around.
Folks--you are now listening to a 400 pound blubber ass who likes to make up boogey man stories.
He is an officer in an Indian Riders group who I'll just not name--no reason to associate good people with a fat lying accountant asswipe self proclaimed "Indian Intellectuals"
Here we have a 400 pound fat guy who is what? 6'3" or 4 inhes tall who won't even defend his own good name when it's called into question by a 55 year old 5'10"
200 pound old fat guy.(That'd be me)

Uh--us folks who are less "Intellectual" than you have a hard time keeping up with your superior thouht patterns once in a while.
Can you explaing why you chose the 4 comments I made and posted them.

As far as "going to Malfa".
Yep--I did my research, and chose the best--your motor was also built by Malfa after it popped--isn't that right?
Accepting a warrantee offered by the dealer that sold me a $17.5k motorcycle that puked it's guts out wihin 6 months of buying it is--what--A dishonest thing?
Well-you lost me there.
As far as my guess that Stellican may have chosen the wrong fellow to fix the problem with the PP--be hard to offer that guy any support if it is wh I think it is.
Hell--he runs a half ass hop in Florida--has a decline in followers due to his shitty work, and tried to help bail another Incarnation of Indian out of their problem a few years back --remember
Yep--I'm talking about the guy who had two bikes with his rebuilds explode on the way to the Branson Indian Rally a few years ago.
Hell--he was riding alongside one of his own rebuilds when it went completely tits up--'member that you chunky little monky?

You go on back and play with your buds on the Nazi Indian Board--I get tired of having you follow me around and to tell you the truth--I'm thinking these folks would get tired of you really quickly-your style and technique is pretty damn transperant.
Hey--want me to tell them the rest of your story?

Yes folks--loks like the boys are here.
I have DARED blaspheme the almighty Indian Boards--and they don't like it.
Get redy to hear some whopping ass horror stories.
That's generally their method--the truth doesn't work o they make something up.
This Fat Boy was actually running around telling people I was threatening to "Stick A Pencil" in A friend of his neck?
Damn--that's hillarious--but he is an Accountant n his real life when he quits pretending he's Billy Bad ass--but still?
A PENCIL??
There's some humor there!!!!
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The Real Pappy
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   Posted 10/4/2007 5:54 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

KC, its just really sad to see a person meltdown like you have. This hatred is eating you up man, and life is too short. I don't know what set you off on this hate spat but please calm down and realize how foolish you look to the world.

As for the sling at me, you don't know me and two other things are obvious;

1. You don't read carefully before you post a reply.

2. You like to spout that you know everything but in reality know very little about other people and their bikes.

Just drop this stuff dude and enjoy your ride. Its just a motorcycle, not a religion.

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NoMoreChickenStrips
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   Posted 10/4/2007 9:03 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
As I suspected - seems like a guy wearing out his welcome - and in other places too.

Doesn't know me either - but if he keeps taking potshots at everyone - I'm sure the moderator will sort him out.

Post Edited (NoMoreChickenStrips) : 10/4/2007 4:27:51 PM GMT

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NoMoreChickenStrips
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   Posted 10/4/2007 9:27 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Well, more to the point - they did not get saddled with the "market research" of the Poweplus - it is a huge hit looks wise with the round heads and all.  Unfortunately, according to a number of press stories - that was the downfall of Gilroy was the mechanics (tolerances) on that motor - word is it is being rebuilt inside - and to meet new tougher EPA/CARB rules.

I think your gut is close - they really purchased the trademark(s) and any "intellectual property" - designs, etc... - along with recall lists etc... and that is all.  They are starting from ground zero - except they have successful "concepts" to pick up - the Chief and Scout. I don't think they acquired much if any of the original tooling. As far as innovation - who knows?  American V-twins - how much different can the niche accept?

They are on record in a number of media outlets as going Chief first - as their Flagship motorcycle.  Then they are thinking of picking up an idea Gilroy was working on - putting a Powerplus into their Scout.  Then they are debating the "racebike" segment - that would be intriguing (remember they looked at Ducati first and passed).

An observation of my own: IF that new redone Powerplus Motor kicks ass in performance and reliability, the bike will sell hot.  These guys seem to be working all the angles to deliver on what was once the pride of the industry.

aogop said...
Some quick comments-

At least the new ownership didn't get saddled with the R&D costs for the Powerplus.

If all the new owners do is re-use existing tooling and build plans from the last incarnation, I can't see them making sales. Margin maybe, since they have little R&D but the previous owners didn't sell many to begin with.

My gut says these guys just bought the company "as-is," and expect to continue producing the exact same models as the previous owner only with a little more hype.

Don't get me wrong, I think the previous Chief looks outstanding, but I think it will be a hard sell if they don't attempt any further innovation to show they are a different company than the previous one.

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KC Cheef
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   Posted 10/7/2007 7:46 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hey Faggoty and Pappy.
No reason for the moderators to sort me out, and your ANGER accusations get really old.
Give me one reason why you think I would be angry?
I'm guessing those tactics won't work on this site--looks to me like opinions and ideas might atually be encouraged on here--open thinking and free expression of thoughts.
Kind of different from your INDIAN MOTORCYCLE FORUM don't you think?
You guys just need to realize that because I disagree doesnt mean I have anger control issues or that I'm uninformed.
As for the uninformed part
Well--we'll see--you 2 just go on hoping for the best from KM--and as a favor?
Could you let us know when they finally bring a bike to market?
You all ride safe--I'm going to be a little busy checking out a new ride coming to the US--Indian Dakota 4--talk about being uninformed?
You guys might just be in for a hell of a surprise
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The Real Pappy
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   Posted 10/7/2007 12:29 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

You know KC, maybe you aren't angry, sorry to imply that. It just seems that when someone takes a motorcycle thread to the point of name calling, ridicule and misquotes, well, just seemed like anger. Maybe you're like that all the time. As for the Dakota 4, the company was started in 1997 and the first time I saw them was in 2003 at Daytona. I think you can go to Tomoka Indian's old site and see the photos, and thanks to the memory of others, apparently this comany was at Daytona in 2002 and maybe earlier. Of course I know this is a secret scoop you are working on. Anyway what does that matter and who says I'm a follower of KM? I like my S&S Gilroy bikes and don't plan on buying another.

KC, post you email address, I have some pictures to send you.


Post Edited (The Real Pappy) : 10/7/2007 11:00:03 PM GMT

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Chunky Monkey
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   Posted 10/8/2007 8:37 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
When people resort to name-calling and ridiculing others like that, they're pretty much admitting they have no real argument against what ever the topic is.

And since when are people with jobs and education not allowed to ride bikes?
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Mac_Muz
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   Posted 10/12/2007 12:27 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Is there any need here for a mod? So far as I can tell there may be such a need, but it appears as you all were posting elsewhere, and have brought problems from elsewhere here.

Since I have no history, my hands are tied. If this gets off this thjread and embedded all over the boards something will have to be done to contain and or delete this and perhaps other threads.This is a request to all of you guys who know what this is over, and for which I can't even figure out, to tame it down a notch or two.

The only reason I believe you are here at all is because a writter/room mod somehow brought you here. Since the writter/room mod is in the employ of mcusa, and I am not aquainted with him, I see this as his problem, more than Cadd's and mine.

IF there is anything I can do, or should do, please send me a PM stating what you believe I should do, if anything.

This is in no way any threat, or anything else you may not like. I can't tell where this is going and so am saying so out loud to no one in particular.

I am noting there appears to be problems, of which I am not any part of, and that you guys might work in PM's beween one another, or asking for assistance work out what ever it is making the thread better.

I hope you guys can fix it, as I have no way to understand who, what, where, and when.

Be fair with each other..


So many bikes, and so little memory
Ossipee New Hampster "Eat Seeds or Die"
 
 

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The Real Pappy
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   Posted 10/12/2007 7:11 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Understood and thanks
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KC Cheef
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   Posted 10/14/2007 9:38 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
No reason to notify anyone as far as I can see.

And?
Pappy--yep you are right.
And you are wrong.
I 've never seen your bike personally, and I don't know you
I DO kow the guy who owned it before you--and I've personally heard his reasons for getting rid of it.
I am NOT puttng your ride down--it is an Indian Motorcycle, and contrary to what you might be led to believe--Indian Motorcycles--their history and the brand is a passion of mine.

BUT!!
The truth (as I see it) is what it is--and Stellican hs no business ownng that brand.
A lot of new things happening since I last got on here--why not fill these folks in a little.
I'm not computer literte to the point of being able to get the link up here so in fairness why don't you post the link to the Sotello interview, and let these folks listen to another side of the Indian saga.
Or?
Would you rather just kep folks from hearing the other side of the Kings Mountain Story?
That seems to be the way of the board you affiliate yourself with.
One question for you --- Are you a GOB?
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KC Cheef
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   Posted 10/14/2007 9:45 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Big Chief said...
When people resort to name-calling and ridiculing others like that, they're pretty much admitting they have no real argument against what ever the topic is.

And since when are people with jobs and education not allowed to ride bikes?


If you are talking about me ridiculing, and name calling?
Nope--FaggotyLiar joined another board I belong to, and chose that riders name and description of himself.
Posted it publicly, and now has to live with it.
Not my doing, and he is a self proclaimed "Intellectual" so what other choice does he leave us with than to accept, and believe what he says about himself.
I will admit though--I have met him a few times, and he does describe himself pretty damn accurately, so why argue?
As far as education, and motorcycles?
The most pure rider I've ever had the pleasure of sharing road with is unable to even write his name--no ignorance there--just a lack of ability to do certain things--he makes up for it in a big time ability to do other things.
So WHAT?
Riders Ride, and Posers pose---always gonna be that way.
Education or lack of has nothing to o with motorcycle riding as far as I can see.

I do love the accusations of my being angry though--cracks me up.
I'm about the happiest damn Indian Rider out there. lol

Post Edited (KC Cheef) : 10/14/2007 4:50:33 PM GMT

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Chunky Monkey
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   Posted 10/14/2007 10:27 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I think you need to go back and read your posts.
Do you even know what a Nazi is? What they did?

Wasn't Sotello one of the guys who tried to bring Indian back the last time? If he has anything bad to say about the new owners would it really suprise you?
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freebird
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   Posted 10/15/2007 3:59 PM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I didn't like the childish banter but do think some good points were raised. The new Indian isn't required to cover any Gilroy Indian warranty issues but one has to wonder whether NHTSA/DOT or EPA can force them to honor safety-related or emissions-related recalls.

Here is my prediction:

Indian will sell their retro-styled Chief and then a year or two later offer "custom inspired" bikes (ala Victory) using the same engine and frame in an effort to boost sales. While the retro-styled Chief will always have its own niche market any conventionally-styled cruisers and baggers that Indian offers will simply nibble at the Victory customer base. For a little more competition, O.C.C. now has "production bike line models starting at $29,900" that will likely appeal to the Wild Hog types. O.C.C. has more name recognition for the average American than either Indian or Victory but they will still need to advertise these production bikes and bring them to the MC shows and other venues so people can place orders. Of course there is also Big Dog and the plethora of custom assemblers in every city who are happy to bolt together a bike using the S&S engine. All of these options are viable alternatives for customers who want an American motorcycle that looks different from a Harley but not too different.

I suppose one can define success in a number of different ways but neither Victory nor Indian will ever break the 10,000 unit sales mark selling heavy-weight cruisers and no other models. I think Indian will consistently sell 3000 retro-styled Chiefs annually regardless of how much they spend on advertising. With several differently styled models - retro, conventional, bagger, etc. - they might get to the 6000 unit mark. There is a limit to what ONE engine will get you in any market particularly when we are talking about an air-cooled, low-compression, large-displacement, 45-degree V-Twin. You can shove that big V-Twin in a retro-cruiser, a custom-inspired cruiser, a touring cruiser, and maybe a cafe-racer inspired bike but you are still limited to those people who think a Harley-esque engine is a good thing.

Recently, Victory entered the luxury touring market with the Vision Tour but it should have had a four-cylinder engine. Again, they found themselves limited with ONE engine. The only way I see Indian being a serious contender rather than scrambling to keep their heads above water is to - as somebody mentioned earlier - be an American version of Triumph. Is Indian prepared to build something along the lines of a 675cc Triple and bolt it to an aluminum frame? Personally, I would have been much more impressed with Indian had they announced that their initial offerings would include bikes with modern versions of the longitudinal Indian Four engine and a modern version of the Junior Scout 500cc Twin engine.
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martinjmpr
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   Posted 10/16/2007 7:59 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
freebird said...
I would have been much more impressed with Indian had they announced that their initial offerings would include bikes with modern versions of the longitudinal Indian Four engine and a modern version of the Junior Scout 500cc Twin engine.
Sadly, I don't see any American manufacturer having the stones to challenge the V-twin worship that has become a staple of the American motorcycle market.  It would be very much to their benefit, but I just don't see them doing it.  Motorcycles, in general, are sold on an emotional basis, and for a lot of reasons (including the brilliant marketing of HD) to Americans, "Motorcycle" means "V-twin", period.  shakehead
 
In any case, there's also the issue of timing:  Triumph managed to get their restart at the beginning of the current motorcycle boom.  Victory hit the boom at it's peak.  Motorcycle sales have been at a high level but I think the bubble is going to burst soon.  For one thing, there's a "saturation point" with motorcycles.  There is a finite market for a $15,000 toy, and when that market is full, sales will slow down. 
 
The motorcycle industry could also be a casualty of the mortgage market, both because the easy refinancing put more $$ in people's pockets for discretionary spending on things like motorcycles will be gone, and because as variable interest rates start going up, people are going to start realizing that the $150/month motorcycle payment can help them keep their house when their mortgage note goes up by $300.  The bike goes up for sale so they can keep the house. 
 
Slowing sales will cause a ripple effect in the motorcycle market.  There will be a "dumping" of late model, low mileage bikes onto the used market, which will drive down the prices of new ones.  Anyone who is risking venture capital in that kind of market is either a fool or a gambler, and most likely both. 


Martin
 
Denver, CO
 
UJM (Universal Japanese Motorcycle) Fanatic
 
 

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martinjmpr
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   Posted 10/16/2007 8:02 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
However, Having said the above, I wonder if the decline of the dollar could benefit HD and Victory? Presumably, imported motorcycles will only get more expensive (though of course, many "Japanese" motorcycles, like my Toyota pickup, are actually built in the US and shouldn't be affected by the declining dollar...) For overseas customers, that Harley could now be quite affordable, which should result in more overseas sales.


Martin
 
Denver, CO
 
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aogop
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   Posted 10/16/2007 8:42 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I find it interesting that the company will be shipping apparel before a bike hits a showroom floor.


'06 DL1000

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martinjmpr
08 Triumph Scrambler



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   Posted 10/16/2007 10:19 AM (GMT -7)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
aogop said...
I find it interesting that the company will be shipping apparel before a bike hits a showroom floor.

I don't know, I'd guess that OCC and WCC probably make 3x as much from selling "logo" merchandise as they do from selling bikes.  smilewinkgrin


Martin
 
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