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bmadson
MCUSA Scribbler

Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 1038

Posted 10/2/2006 7:30 AM (GMT -8)

At the recent press intro for the 2007 Buell models, Ken got a chance to turn some laps on the Formula Xtreme-racing Buell XBRR. Check it out.

Kevin Duke
Rubber-side Down

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 1521

Posted 10/2/2006 11:05 AM (GMT -8)

Sad to see both XBRRs retire out of last weekend's race with mechanical problems.

-KD, MotorcycleUSA Editor

Chedda
Registered Member

Date Joined Sep 2005
Total Posts : 70

Posted 10/2/2006 11:28 AM (GMT -8)

It's true- I try to remain as supportive of American made motors as possible, but the fact that there is plenty of room for improvement is proven time and time again.

RedDog
Retired SportBike Bum

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 11268

Posted 10/2/2006 11:34 AM (GMT -8)

Even I (!) hope to see the Buell up there, but they have a long way to go to cure all the mechanical issues.

RedDog

Travel Light & Leave Your Fears Behind You!

Normal People Scare me!

louemc
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 15451

Posted 10/2/2006 11:38 AM (GMT -8)

It would be nice if Harley (and Eric) were concerned enough to do something about that. (it's not like a first time)
I wouldn't hold my breath though, Harley didn't show that they even know how to do right, when they did the VR1000 effort.
When I was using my Buell, I asked Eric, how I could possibly have the problems that came up (if they just rode their Buells and worked on them, they would know, and fix the weakness's), he said, "we rushed into production". That answer is a butt load of excuse crap that only flys with people that don't have any background in developing and manufacturing.
There are companies that put out problem plagued products, using the customers as the product testing, but those companies aren't the ones that have a hard earned reputation of quality.

Focus the forces, Be The Force

Desmolicious
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 4618

Posted 10/2/2006 11:41 AM (GMT -8)

Just to be the naysayer (cuz it's more fun)... 1340cc's? Dayumm, I thought it was bad enough when it was 1200cc's againt the 600s. That really shows the inadequacy of their engineering. Look at Ducati to see how it's done, they just won the World Superbike Championship with a V-twin that is of EQUAL size as its 4 cylinder competitors.
p.s just to beat on a dead horse, that Buell XBrr,rr is about the fugliest racebike I have ever seen. The stock Buells look much much better.

Børk! Børk! Børk!

Kenny
MCUSA - Editorial Director

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 460

Posted 10/2/2006 11:54 AM (GMT -8)

Desmo... Well the 1340cc motor is an air-cooled Twin battling water-cooled four cylinders so on paper it looks like the H-D should have an advantage but it still is using old technology to compete. Then the issue of looks. i never really thought it was too much of a looker but we all have our wek points dont we? The frame and motor look so bad-ass in person it is almost like it was carved out of a giant chink of billet aluminum. The bodywork could be better though. Apparently its aerodynamically correct, hich is all good on paper, but a bit more time spent making it look really trick might go a ways towards attracting the fans. Still, it grew on me as I watched it in motion that hot and sunny afternoon in Bakersfield.

Lou - I'm not sure of I would take the rushed into production as a butt load of crap here. There was no pre-Daytona testing capable of taxing the components to the level they would be subjected to at Daytona and Buell knew it going into the race. Now, i don't know what the deal is now because it would seem they should be sorted out at this point. Whatever the scoop, I'll keep my fingers crossed.

Red Dog - I can say without any reservations that A) The bike would be a bitch for passengers. B) It would be tough to ride at night since the lights seemed to be non existent.

Damn it, where'd Duke go now?

solotc
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2006
Total Posts : 12

Posted 10/2/2006 11:54 AM (GMT -8)

ducati doesnt race air cooled motors. if harley wud get around to letting buell develop a water cooled engine, they'd have me as a buyer. as far as it goes tho, low revving harley v-twins (torque monsters that they are) arent my cup of tea. Good luck to buell in the 20-07 season

louemc
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 15451

Posted 10/2/2006 12:21 PM (GMT -8)

Umm, no Pre Daytona testing? Do you remember when the Honda RC51 was first seen? A place called Daytona, season opener, ridden by a guy Called Nicky Hayden. Remember how that race went? Flawless, he kicked Ducati ass, big time, He lead (as I recall) like half the race (didn't start with the lead), then lost the lead to Suzuki by about a half a bike length in the last few feet of the race. Have any idea how that can happen? It's because testing can be done for mechanical stress, inside a building on testing machines, run by computers. And testing can be done on other tracks.
Harley goes about it like they refuse to learn anything.
And about that aerodynamic fairing? Ya gotta be joking big time there, Ya actually think the other companies (that are going faster) and have a different shaped fairing, don't do aerodynamics? When Buell can take and hold the lead, they can woo hoo aerodynamics or anything else they want to (who can argue with anyone in front?) in the mean time, they aren't doing anything, and they aren't doing the anything, right in front of everyone to see. They should be ashamed of themselves.

Focus the forces, Be The Force

Hattori_Hanzo
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 255

Posted 10/2/2006 12:57 PM (GMT -8)

Comparing Buell's race effort and Honda's is like David and Goliath. Just because the Motor Company owns 98% of Buell, doesn't mean the check book is wide open for a race effort. I'm sure that Buell's development budget is a drop in the bucket compared to the Japanese.

I would like to add that although the season had it's major setbacks, I was still happy to see them out there. Hopefully with some off season tweaking they can return and get one up on a podium next year.

louemc
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 15451

Posted 10/2/2006 1:02 PM (GMT -8)

Didn't David put Goliath's lights out ?

Focus the forces, Be The Force

Kenny
MCUSA - Editorial Director

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 460

Posted 10/2/2006 1:20 PM (GMT -8)

So what you're saying Lou is that the Buell XBRR is ugly and should have been put through more rigorous testing before being unleashed at Daytona and that they are bad, very bad people for trying to do too much with too little?

Hattori - My analogy would be more like this: Buell = Copperhead (Vernita Green) & Honda = Black Mamba (Beatrix Kiddo): Copperhead and her ability to use what tools she has at her disposal to an effective end, is impressive in her own right, but is not quite at the same level of the sheer determination to be the best and the technologically advanced sword wielded by the mighty Beatrix. Makes for a good fight scene, but we all have a good idea how its going to end before the fight even starts.

Damn it, where'd Duke go now?

Hattori_Hanzo
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 255

Posted 10/2/2006 1:34 PM (GMT -8)

Lou...Ooooops! But you knew what I meant. Maybe next year David will show up with his slingshot loaded.

Kenny...I did make BK a hell of a katana, didn't I.

louemc
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 15451

Posted 10/2/2006 2:07 PM (GMT -8)

Kenny said...
So what you're saying Lou is that the Buell XBRR is ugly and should have been put through more rigorous testing before being unleashed at Daytona and that they are bad, very bad people

I never said that any Buell was/is ugly. I never said any one in that camp was Bad (or very Bad) people. Useing those words is just making stuff up (and I don't think you're a Bad person for pulling that stunt ) Actually, there are a lot of words for the Harley/Buell camp that I could use, that aren't nice, but, the non-Harley/Buell folk already know, and the Harley/Buell folk will always come up with lame logic, to explain away the failures, so I don't have to point anything out.

Focus the forces, Be The Force

Post Edited (louemc) : 10/2/2006 10:10:08 PM GMT

Kenny
MCUSA - Editorial Director

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 460

Posted 10/2/2006 2:26 PM (GMT -8)

You know Lou, those crazy buck teeth and googly-eyes really cover up what is an informed little brian in that yellow and orange cranium of yours.

Damn it, where'd Duke go now?

louemc
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 15451

Posted 10/2/2006 2:31 PM (GMT -8)

Hey Hey, How about the Sport bike fairing and the street handle bars?

Focus the forces, Be The Force

Desmolicious
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 4618

Posted 10/2/2006 2:38 PM (GMT -8)

solotc said...
ducati doesnt race air cooled motors. if harley wud get around to letting buell develop a water cooled engine, they'd have me as a buyer. as far as it goes tho, low revving harley v-twins (torque monsters that they are) arent my cup of tea. Good luck to buell in the 20-07 season

No they don't. But their engines are also V-twins and 340cc's smaller than the Buells! Buell's excuses of old tech is completely BS. Instead of complaining, how about making something new tech? Being beaten by privateers on bikes less than half their size running on shoe string budgets really is not that impressive...

Børk! Børk! Børk!

Kenny
MCUSA - Editorial Director

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 460

Posted 10/2/2006 3:59 PM (GMT -8)

Ok, fine. But is the video cool?

Damn it, where'd Duke go now?

Tros
Global Moderator

Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 7309

Posted 10/2/2006 4:05 PM (GMT -8)

Too much wind noise

*runs and hides*

"People take different roads seeking fulfillment and happiness. Just because they're not on your road doesn't mean they've gotten lost."

Desmolicious
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 4618

Posted 10/2/2006 6:41 PM (GMT -8)

Video, this site, the writers/editors/testers and street Buells all rock! But the XbRrrRr, (is that a bike a pirate would ride, Arrrrr.. ) bites.

Børk! Børk! Børk!

GeoffG
Harley Ninja!

Date Joined Jun 2003
Total Posts : 9196

Posted 10/2/2006 8:33 PM (GMT -8)

I think Ken got the essence of Buell's philosophy, right here: "As much fun as that V-Twin is, it is not the highlight of the XBRR: It's the chassis. The bike is...mindlessly easy to manhandle, as is the Buell way." My stock Buell might not have the blistering power of...well, almost any race replica, but it is incredibly fun to ride, at least where the roads are twisty.

Superlight
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2004
Total Posts : 113

Posted 10/3/2006 4:05 AM (GMT -8)

I would really like to see the Buells do well, in racing and street bike sales as well. I knew Eric when we were both racing WERA back in the '80s; a really good guy. And, hey, I'm an American!

His bikes have always shown promise in chassis concepts and have always lacked a proper powerplant to effectively compete with the Japanese and Italians. It appears nothing has changed in all these years.

Harley has deemed it OK to invest in new cruiser engines (V-Rods) and their touring bikes (the new 96 c.i. motor), but never in superbikes. Until they do, the Buells will never realize the promise of their chassis designs.

Erik must be one frustrated guy.

Moto-Pat
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2005
Total Posts : 1167

Posted 10/3/2006 5:24 AM (GMT -8)

IMO Buell and H-D have differant missions. Eric would love to race and H-D who controls the wallet just wants to get younger rider into the show room so down the road when they can afford it they will be on H-D's. You know H-D has the money but not the drive to take on the big-4. If that was the case they would be sold in sport bike shops where they would find more customers and they would develope a motor. Racing is to generate intrest and get them some press time. From what I see here it is mission accomplished.

Sargent Apex
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 15

Posted 10/3/2006 7:32 AM (GMT -8)

A quick check of Harley Davidsons stock record over the last 10 years is a tell all. Harley makes more money than anyone in the bike business. The only thing keeping Harley from building a competetive motor is Harley. The money and engineering is there. I have trouble with rules being written to allow certain brands a advantage over competition that has invested the time and money to compete on a fair and equal playing field. Buells do not belong in formula xtreme. Perhaps a super twins class that Harley could display its brand of technology, vs the rest of the world. Then Harley can finish runner up to Ducati, KTM, Aprilia, and anyone else who has bothered to developed a motor this century.

Superlight
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2004
Total Posts : 113

Posted 10/3/2006 8:50 AM (GMT -8)

Yes, Harley is successful today, but it hasn't always been that way. The early '80s were not so peachy when AMF was running the show. Makes you wonder what would have happened if:

1. Harley was a foreign brand instead of US (interestingly, the US auto industry is falling apart while Harley is thriving, both with many "old" technology products)

2. The Baby Boomers had not decided to relive their second childhood on Harleys

3. The accessory business was not so profitable; many think that's where Harley is making most of their money

4. Buells had a dedicated, modern superbike engine, like Ducati or Aprilia

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