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Harley1
Forum Moderator

Date Joined Dec 2006
Total Posts : 247

Posted 10/20/2008 9:49 AM (GMT -8)

Climb on while we sample Ducati's new 2009 Monster 1100 in the south of France, arguably one of the most beautiful places on earth...

Desmolicious
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 4618

Posted 10/20/2008 12:15 PM (GMT -8)

Nice, very nice.

Børk! Børk! Børk!

YellowDuck
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 4130

Posted 10/20/2008 12:44 PM (GMT -8)

Glad to hear the forks are adjustable - you couldn't tell that for sure from the photos they released, and the tech details I saw were vague.

I like this one quite a bit, but wish they would go back to analogue clocks. Not a big fan of the hybrid frame per se, and the cool welded up natural aluminum looking swingarm on the S2R was nicer....but overall it is an improvement, aesthetically, over the S2 bikes and the older ones too. Glad they got rod of the wiring harness straps on the frame.

Very curious to see what the Monster cognoscenti think about the new rear suspension architecture. The change to a linkage-less setup on this and the 696 is a major departure from all monsters past - the most significant change, in my opinion, if not the most obvious. The shock angle and the spring wind will make it quite progressive, but I still can't help suspecting that this is a step backwards for the suspension.

Cynicism is what passes for insight among the mediocre - Joe Klein

GAJ
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2007
Total Posts : 4763

Posted 10/20/2008 1:06 PM (GMT -8)

They raved about the stock suspension...so perhaps all is well.

Still go back and forth about whether I like the looks of that "in your face" frame detail under the gas tank.

Hate reading constantly about crappy from the factory fueling at lower revs that us owners have to fix for ourselves with a Power Commander; a great product, I have one for the very reasons on one of my bikes, but we shouldn't have to fix this stuff on so many bikes.

And now, in California, Power Commanders aren't "legal" on road bikes unless you buy one of the special "california models" available on only a few bikes as a result of a lawsuit. I'm confident the "california models" don't work as well as the "normal" models now designated "for racing only."

jon
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 4569

Posted 10/20/2008 1:29 PM (GMT -8)

GAJ said...
Hate reading constantly about crappy from the factory fueling at lower revs that us owners have to fix for ourselves with a Power Commander; a great product, I have one for the very reasons on one of my bikes, but we shouldn't have to fix this stuff on so many bikes.

agree that bikes should be built with good enough quality so that we don't have to mess with it or spend additional money to get it fix. so far, all of the bikes i and the people i've ridden with bought ran just fine in bone stock form from the factory except for one guy. i rode with him last summer and he had a duc 1098. his biggest gripe is the bike won't run correctly without the additional cost of termi pipes and new ecu. the termi pipes and new ecu cost him an additional $1300. i don't understand it either considering how much that bike cost already and it not being a first year bike. maybe it's ducati's way of ripping off the buyers because he did paid close to 20k out the door for his 08' base 1098 if i remember correctly. the short maintenance interval such as valve and belt tension check and cost of it is his second biggest gripe...however, he wanted a ducati and was willing to sacrafice a good chunk of change towards the duc ownership cost.

his bike is the red one in the photo:

Post Edited (jon) : 10/20/2008 11:27:32 PM GMT

Dr. Sprocket
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 88

Posted 10/20/2008 2:44 PM (GMT -8)

Daddy likey!

Grrrr, baby! Very grrrr!

ro7939
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 57

Posted 10/20/2008 8:19 PM (GMT -8)

This is probably my favorite pavement only bike now; I'm glad it's larger (apparently a lot) than the 696; I sat on the 696 & it's way too small for me.

I intend to ride both the Monster 1100 & Buell 1125CR. Silver/red frame looks sweet in the pics. The CR scoops do look awful in pics; also wary of the reported vibration (Ulysses vibration was absolutely totally unnaceptable). Hopefully the CR has none of my Ulysses' fork dive, which was also totally awful. A friend who built pro AMA bikes is very down on Eric Buell's strange engineering ideas. IMHO the vibration of H-D's Sportster motor is so horrible that buyers (including myself) must experience a serious case of brain fag to pay money for it. That motor is a vibration pig of epic proportions.

Your writing in these reports seems to get better & better. Can't complain about the price either! Great job!

Post Edited (ro7939) : 10/21/2008 4:11:33 PM GMT

ro7939
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 57

Posted 10/20/2008 8:41 PM (GMT -8)

jon said...

his bike is the red one in the photo:

There are some good points above. I take serious issue though w/ the choice of the words "ripping off the buyer". Ripping off to me means tricking someone; misrepresenting something. For instance, selling someone a bike w/ a marekting campaign that states it is the perfect OEM bike & requires absolutely no mods for anyone when it really is not such a bike.

Anyone not test riding a $20k bike & not discovering everything required in the way of time & money for maintenance before buying it...a certain phrase comes to mind: "A fool & his money are soon parted". It's perfectly OK as far as I'm concerned that there are people who may choose to walk in to a Ducati dealer & write a check for a new 1098 w/o a test ride, then ride home & fnd out afterward all about the glitches to be ironed out & the service expenses. Personally, I would not do that. But Ducati is perfectly reasonable for accepting that buyer's money. It's quite wrong to blame Ducati for taking anyone's money at anytime, as long as the buyer is not under the influence &/or not suffering some other type of impairment & they are fully licensed. Ducati are in the business of manufacturing motorcycles then exchanging money for those motorcycles through their dealers. Is that wrong?

I read a lot of bike ads. Never saw a Ducati ad that states Ducati riding characteristics are gauranteed to never be improved upon w/ custom tuning &/or modifications. To the contrary, look at any Ducati dealer ad &/or aftermarket shop: they scream modify! Ducati has its own HP parts catalog & loudly advertises such. The "rip off" claim is wholy unjustified or worse.

So...between the test ride & purchase one would reasonably hope & expect it is solely the prospective buyer's responsibility to either accept the ride as is, or have questions about the ride & find out what is likely required to get the ride to be what the buyer wants. In other words, the buyer is solely & personally responsible for his decision at the time he writes the check or signs the loan papers.

Complaining after the fact is immature at best, dishonest at worst.

jon
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 4569

Posted 10/20/2008 10:06 PM (GMT -8)

'ripping off' is how i feel about it not the rider that bought the 1098 (as far as i can tell, the positives of the bike still outweigh the negatives for him). i also understand the definition of 'ripping off' but i use it in this case because it seems like ducati is not able to build or choose not to build a 16k bike that runs right w/o the termi pipes and another ecu then they pass those additional charges to their customers. if they install those components on the bike to make it run right (like it should for a brand spankin new bike) free of charge for their customers that just forked out 16 large for each of those bikes, it's fair but that's not the case. so yeah, maybe using 'ripping off' as a reference is a little strong but perhaps because i've never bought a brand new bone stock bike that didn't run right or required additional charges for parts to make it run right when i picked it up from the dealers and none of those bikes cost anywhere near 16k or perhaps because ducati is the only company that i've heard of doing such thing which is hard to understand since they have been building bikes for a long time (and yes, i would use the term 'rip off' towards any other bike company that sells a high priced bike that won't run right w/o charging the customers extra to make it run right...it just happens to be ducati this time). furthermore, the customers may have to deal with the legality issue of those termi pipes in certain areas too but that's another topic...

Post Edited (jon) : 10/21/2008 6:30:47 AM GMT

ro7939
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 57

Posted 10/21/2008 8:06 AM (GMT -8)

I've owned about 75 bikes, many of which were new. Every one of them could be improved w/ modifications. The '90 CB750, one of the most popular bikes of its type, needed better brakes & the fork dived pretty bad. Another common bike, the '98 Bandit 1200 needed carb work to smooth obtrusive motor vibration; ditto dive problem. It goes on. Ironically, my new '99 Ducati SS900 was not modified; it was probably closer to perfect than any other new bike I've owned. The '99 Interceptor 800 might have been an exception; it seemed darn close to perfect in OEM condition, though I didn't like its soft low end torque compared to my twin experience.

How many new bikes have you owned? Could you list the bikes you think could not appreciably improve w/ mods? My experience at age 54 is the opposite of yours.

Again, IMO the term "ripping off" should be reserved for conscious, deliberate trickery, deceit &/or misrepresentation, which precludes its use relative to Ducati's 1098 performance improving appreciably w/ costly pipes & ECU (I don't personally know that to be the case but its consistent w/ my general Ducati knowledge).

Desmolicious
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 4618

Posted 10/21/2008 9:18 AM (GMT -8)

ro7939 said...

The CR scoops do look awful in pics; also wary of the reported vibration (Ulysses vibration was absolutely totally unnaceptable). Hopefully the CR has none of my Ulysses' fork dive, which was also totally awful.

Ulysses uses a completely different engine and suspension tuning.

The scoops look worse in real life. I checked the bike out. Ick.

Børk! Børk! Børk!

jon
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 4569

Posted 10/21/2008 11:02 AM (GMT -8)

ro7939 said...

How many new bikes have you owned? Could you list the bikes you think could not appreciably improve w/ mods? My experience at age 54 is the opposite of yours.

i've owned 10 brand new and used 'bone stock' bikes from the factory and none of them needed any mods to make it run right (including the used maxim 1100 that i only paid 1k for...starts up every time and ran just fine in bone stock form). as far as i know, the termi pipes and new ecu are needed for some duc models just to make it run right even though the bike is brand spankin new. in terms of the improvement appreciated 'list' of bikes, my current bike could use a thicker seat and a bigger gas tank but it's not needed. and that's where the issue is for me (when the manufactures sells an already expensive brand new bike that need additional parts just to make it run like it should then passing those charges to the customers that just fork out the big bucks for their product). there is a big difference between needed (the buyer have to pay for it) and could use (the buyer's personal choice). if it's needed, the manufactures should've iron those things out before selling it to the customers especially when they already know every bike of that line needs it or they should correct it free of charge. it would be a sad day for me when i tell others that i just spend alot of money on a brand new bike but it doesn't run correctly and i'll still need to spend more money on it just to make it run like a brand new bike should run. it's not just bikes, it would apply to cars, computers, appliances, televisions, etc., for me as well.

Post Edited (jon) : 10/21/2008 7:25:03 PM GMT

louemc
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 15451

Posted 10/21/2008 11:44 AM (GMT -8)

Improving a bike, covers a lot of territory.

Considerable burden falls on the buyer, to filter out items that won't pass their list of objections, from the git-go.

No bike is made that sells to such a variety of customers, will be seen as perfect for all of them. It's up to the buyer, to choose what fills the bill best, and what needs changing, acceptable to change.

Basically, a bike is a starting point (what is expected, when you get so much for so little?) If a bike has too many complaints, then the buyer should of done a better job of shopping.

Focus the forces, Be The Force

Richard47
Registered Member

Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 3953

Posted 10/21/2008 1:38 PM (GMT -8)

You wouldn't expect to test a 'fridge or a washing machine or a TV before you bought it, just in case it didn't work properly. A motorcycle is an item of consumer goods just as these are, and you have every right to expect it to perform properly to a good standard right from the word go. No bike should need money spending on it before it runs right. There is a lot of difference between making it run right and improving an already satisfactory level of performance.

Toilet Brush Dog Owner

jon
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 4569

Posted 10/21/2008 1:43 PM (GMT -8)

agree about the individual preference/choice of upgrades/mods for what ever reason loue because it's a personal choice and not a requirement.

Desmolicious
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 4618

Posted 10/21/2008 4:50 PM (GMT -8)

Let's be honest here, the first thing that 99.9% people do when they buy a Duc is put some pipes on it to hear that sweet sweet v-twin goodness.

Børk! Børk! Børk!

jon
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 4569

Posted 10/21/2008 4:57 PM (GMT -8)

Richard47 said...
You wouldn't expect to test a 'fridge or a washing machine or a TV before you bought it, just in case it didn't work properly. A motorcycle is an item of consumer goods just as these are, and you have every right to expect it to perform properly to a good standard right from the word go. No bike should need money spending on it before it runs right. There is a lot of difference between making it run right and improving an already satisfactory level of performance.

right Richard47,

and that's my point. if i bought a brand new 'fridge or a washing machine or a TV' and got home, and it didn't work like a brand new product should, i would return it or ask the manufacture to fix that defect free of charge.

Post Edited (jon) : 10/22/2008 1:08:44 AM GMT

jon
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 4569

Posted 10/21/2008 5:03 PM (GMT -8)

Des,

yep, the folks that prefer their bikes bone stock is in the minority from what i've seen too.

Post Edited (jon) : 10/22/2008 1:09:15 AM GMT

Nodian
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2008
Total Posts : 18

Posted 10/21/2008 7:07 PM (GMT -8)

Jon,

You are absolutely correct. Legally speaking, any item you purchase whether it is a stick of gum or a $16K Italian motorcycle, it is sold with an implied warranty. This warranty guarantees that the item being purchased will perform in a manner which the product was designed to perform.

“A guarantee about the quality of goods or services purchased that is not written down or explicitly spoken. Virtually everything you buy comes with two implied warranties. One for "merchantability" and one for "fitness." The implied warranty of merchantability is an assurance that a new item will work for its specified purpose. The item doesn't have to work wonderfully, and if you use it for something it wasn't designed for, say trimming shrubs with an electric carving knife, the warranty doesn't apply. The implied warranty of fitness applies when you buy an item for a specific purpose. If you notified the seller of your specific needs, the item is guaranteed to meet them. For example, if you buy new tires for your bicycle after telling the store clerk that you plan to use them for mountain cycling and the tires puncture when you pass over a small rock, the tires don't conform to the warranty of fitness”. http://www.nolo.com/definition.cfm/Term/37620E7D-4ABC-45AF-931A051512F50813/alpha/I/

So if the Ducati breaks down three times after the dealer tries to fix it, would that still be the Lemon law or the Tomato law?

jon
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 4569

Posted 10/21/2008 8:23 PM (GMT -8)

Nodian,

to be fair to ducati, they are not hiding anything from their customers (which is what ro7939 pointed out) as far as i know but i would still get the rip off feeling if i paid 16 large for a product and then needed to pay more to make it operable. part of it is, it's hard for me to understand why a bike company with a good long history like ducati can't build a 16k bike that run well enough right off the bat and in legal specs required in certain areas. but as the old saying goes, to each their own because it's not my money and choice.

as i've said before, i have never heard of such thing until i ran into the 1098 owner i rode with. initially, i thought his bike was just a bad apple but he said all of the 1098 models required the termi pipes and a new ecu in order for it to run correctly (that kind of blew my mind because i've never heard of such thing before and especially for a bike model that starts at 16k).

another ? that pops into my head at the time was, what will he do when he gets a fix it ticket from johnny law of california? will ducati assist him? therefore, it makes more sense to just buy a bike that is fully legal and operable in the first place for me and if i ever wanted to spend more money to put illegal parts on it down the road, it'll be my choice and preference not a requirement just so my bike could run correctly.

Post Edited (jon) : 10/22/2008 4:27:46 AM GMT

Somec
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2005
Total Posts : 18

Posted 10/21/2008 10:08 PM (GMT -8)

I somewhat agree with 'Jon', I have an acquaintance with a rider that picked up a 1098 when they first came out that has the same issue (he also says that he has since discovered others have this issue) with regard fueling that cannot seem to be resolved unless owners pony up for the Termig pipes and race ECU (I'm sure other pipes are an option also..the ECU seems to be the major part)..I heard a number around the $3k area tho..so I'm a tad confused about that part. Honestly this fellow was likely on the marginal edge of being financially able to house and feed a thorobred Italian stallion truth be told, he decided to sell it and replaced it with a 1000rr which now has a oil consumption issue. It's a shame because after the potential money pit of the Duc (relative admittedly as he wasnt really the best candidate to be an owner...modest earner $$) he wanted to get a no compromise, reliable easy to service and operate bike and so went with the 'quality king' Honda. Poor guy cant catch a break.

I dont quite understand 'ro7939's "taking serious issue" is 'Jon's' statement. We are quite free to disagree admittedly but why such robust defense for the Duc? In my narrow universe everyone I know would say exactly what 'Jon' stated with regard to "rip off", and we would all mean it somewhat loosely and 'layman-like', not going over into legalese.

I currently have 3 motorcycles...two triumphs and a kawasaki all fuel without issue right off the showroom floor, and I quite frankly would expect nothing less than a machine fully functioning and without issue..who wouldnt? I had test rides available to me with the Triumphs, no such mercy was available to me with the Japanese motorcycle anywhere in the tri-state area, that had to be purchased with a hope, prayer and a checkbook before I ever got a chance to actually ride the thing. Frankly the unavailablity of test rides is a frank truth where I live and has been the way of things for quite some time. I suppose 'fools and their money" are parted with uncanny frequency in the NorthEast USA...I dont know what the policy is with Ducati though, I know they have 'demo days' on occasion.

It's quite a common thing for us in the USA to put a 'pipe' on our bikes but in a great many other places in the world this is not such a common thing to do, I dont have my finger on the pulse elsewhere admittedly but I'm sure the option of putting on a set of Termig pipes and riding about town without inviting the local constabulary to repremand you for breaking some environmental (sound, emission, etc) rule is not n option for all.

ahem...on the aside...Cool new monster, hope it does well and looking forward to read about a hooligan shootout come '09.

Quickbrit
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 1

Posted 10/22/2008 2:46 AM (GMT -8)

With respect R'47, if you bought that TV and the government cut off 50 of the 100 available channels, wouldn't you pay a little extra to achieve full service?

MikeE

jsanford
'07 BMW F800ST, '08 M695, '77 Kaw KH400 2-stroke

Date Joined Feb 2005
Total Posts : 2302

Posted 10/22/2008 4:15 PM (GMT -8)

This phrase captures it all:

"Think the old Monster but now more metro sexual..."

That's not the force that had me covet a Ducati Monster for fourteen years before I bought mine. Besides, the "metro Monster" has been done: the Aprilia Shiver and the Suzuki SV650. The original design of the Monster harkened to the idea of a Frankenbike. The new generation doesn't have the apparance that it would like being parked out in the rain. The new generation Monster would never <A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Chateau/8780/crowcoa5.gif">be the vehicle of choice for a ghost</A>.

Newbodometer: 20465 miles

jsanford
'07 BMW F800ST, '08 M695, '77 Kaw KH400 2-stroke

Date Joined Feb 2005
Total Posts : 2302

Posted 10/22/2008 4:20 PM (GMT -8)

Nodian said...

Jon,

So if the Ducati breaks down three times after the dealer tries to fix it, would that still be the Lemon law or the Tomato law?

Depends on your state. In Washington, the Lemon Law doesn't cover bikes under 750ccs. And no, I have no idea where that standard came from.

Newbodometer: 20465 miles

Nodian
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2008
Total Posts : 18

Posted 10/22/2008 8:22 PM (GMT -8)

jsanford,

The implied warranty is universal for any purchase in all 50 states.

The comment at the end about the lemon law, which has nothing to do with the implied warranty because the implied warranty is a warranty not a law, was dry humor or sarcasm. You know, Italian bike, tomatoes instead of lemons. If it were a German bike like BMW, Wiener Schnitzel law instead of lemon law.

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